To be fair it wasn’t really used or needed, only in certain specific situations. It will be missed though, just because of how cool it was, lol.
I’ve tested ver.2012 a bit yesteday and I found that…
- The uncrouchable dive (all version) works on EVERY CHARACTERS! (Cammy, Dhalsim, Yun, Yang, Honda and Blanka included).
- (At the close range) If u do a combo cr.MK into HP Slide (no follow up), Hakan will cross-under the opponent. The new mixup begins.
- All version of Oil Dive is a lot faster than before.
Emperor Cow - your results about 360 being throw immune are getting screwed up because you’re doing it in reversal situations…
The defender is ALWAYS throw immune in these situations for… 2 frames I think?
Also, I think command throws will always beat regular throws anyway…
Easiest way to test would be to get dummy Hakan to jump straight up and then EX-360 when he lands… Try to throw him out of it. If he flashes yellow before the throw / loses meter, voila, you threw the spd.
Great stuff so far guys. Looks like I’m going to have to re-do like 70% of my Hakan notebook. Although I can’t really complain =/
I think my favourite buff so far (other than starting oiled, of course) is the super. It’s actually really, really useful now; it punishes fireballs and jumps so well, and even using it to punish laggy moves is great, since it does an awesome amount of damage per meter spent (especially when oiled) and leaves you with time to get MK oil afterwards.
Wow, you guys are coming up with these pretty fast. That’s awesome! So I’m relerning my Oildive set ups. Kind of a bummer, but it’s better in the long run.
Anybody nocied that the game itself is faster? I mean i thought it only Hakan cause I went to Training room first natually. But once I hit Arcade Mode everything was sped up. Plus i’ve been noticing the AI are doing differnt things now. seth for example. he was randomly doing lvl 3 focus while close by, when i wasn’t hitting him. When Far away, he would do a lvl 2 focus fake out and backdash. It was odd seeing him play this way. Unlike a lot of you i don’t have great online Play since I live so far up north. So I have to mass around in Arcade mode a lot. But yeah, just thought I bring it up.
Keep up the good work guys!!
Hi Nybb & fellow hakans, can you/anyone elaborate/test Super-usage.
-different strengeth diff situation?
-upper body invincible?
-all 3 punch strength can hold and upper body invincible during that?
-point blank fireball can Super come out? what strength?
not complaining but it would have been nice to have a cancel-able super into Guard Position. Just a thought haha
confusing questions but yeah lk. super is good for countering attacks like DP, Flash Kicks, Blanka Ball, Tatsu, etc… even certain EX moves, supers and ultras that involve some sort of melee type of attack.
mk. super is good for counter grabs but mainly command grabs. made specially to counter character like gief, abel, t.hawk, and pretty much anyone that likes to command grab.
hk. super is good against fire balls and super or ultra fire projectiles/fire ball even certain ex moves like Fei’s ex rekka why this is i don’t know why but its like that.
best to be oil when you want to use your super or have need to use for more damage.
Had a lot of matches today, Hakan 2012 is so much fun! The new Oil Dive resets and setups are incredibly powerful. I was using the cr.lks > lk OD which is so hard to escape. What’s interesting about this is that cr.lk was always used for ticks, and pressure, but now you have something damaging to followup with!
Super is ridiculous, really, if you see a jump you have days to confirm the super. Even neutral jumps on wakeup are now risky for the opponent.
Your defense still needs to be tight of course, let’s not forget that, but there’s times when 2012 Hakan is reaaaally scary.
ive done several tests including yours … and heres what ive found …
theres something very fishy about hakans oil rocket … and i think i know why everyones getting mixed results now …
TEST: empty jump EX rocket … and attempting to grab it :
based on what your saying if the yellow spark comes out … ann he still gets thrown … then he is NOT throw invincible …
now when i attempted this test i found something very peculiar about hakans oil rocket …
it seems that … the move does not activate on the 1st frame of landing !!!
meaning that if you try EX rocket after empty neutral jump or even forward jump he is vulnerable to throw for the first frame of landing … and THEN the spark comes out !!!
so if you try and throw him … hakan will be thrown but will not spark up or lose meter !!
HOWEVER, once the spark is out … you CANNOT throw him
on the other hand … (oiled) EX dive … works from the 1st frame of landing … (just like if u do empty jump uppercut with ryu for example) and is invulnerable from the moment u touch the ground till contact
why oil rocket cannot be activated on the first frame of landing boggles my mind … i tried several times … i just doesnt happen …
which made me want to get to the bottom of this so i attempted another test
TEST: (oil) blocked cr.MP, EX rocket … and attempting to grab it :
the reason i did this test is that cr.MP is -1 on block … this means … if i attempt a rocket on the next frame … if I’m correct then the EX rocket would be invulnerable to throw for 3 frames and active for 2 but after " -1 frame"… (this would make it as if it is a 4 frame start up move)
the most important thing about this test is that the timing should be extremely tight and perfect …
also … the opponents command throw attempt must be a “REVERSAL” … i will get to why in a bit …
heres what i got …
-
vs normal throw : rocket won 100 % of the time … (normal throws are 3 frame startup and 2 frames active) … if the move were not throw invincible the normal throw should have won as it becomes active while the rocket is still in start up … but this is not the case … and normal throw loses to rocket
-
vs zangief’s SPD (all normal versions using LP, MP and HP ) the start up of giefs SPD is 2 frames and is active for 2 frames … now … if it wasnt invincible … zangiefs SPD should win …the result ? hakans rocket won 100% of the time …
its important to note that zangief MUST do his SPD on “REVERSAL” because in 2 frames later would result in him being active for longer than hakan resulting in zangief’s SPD to win
- vs zangief’s EX SPD: zangief’s EX spd is 4 frame start up and 2 frames active ( theoreticly exactly like the setup i did) … but because the move has “reversal” advantage … instead of both moves whiffing … zangief’s EX SPD won 100 % of the time …
HOWEVER, the interesting part is … that hakans EX spark didnt even come out !! AGAIN !!!
which is making me think … that maybe … the spark comes out on the 3rd or 4th frame ?! … to verify this i tried out abel …
-
vs abel’s normal tornado throw : ( 5 frame start up ithrow nvincibility and 2 frames active) … as expected, because of the slower startup and resulting in a later active frame abel’s tornado throw won 100% of the time … however the spark came out this time and an EX meter was lost ! (proving my theory that the spark might come out later than we thought)
-
vs abel’s EX tornado throw: (5 frame startup but NO throw invincibility and 2 frames active ) … as expected EX tornado lost 100 % of the time … basicly hakan got to his active frames before the move even started
this made me curious again so i did nother test…
**TEST: (oil) blocked st.MP, EX rocket… and attempting to grab it **
hakans st.MP on block is +1, now if this is done correctly … this should turn the move into a 2 frame start up and 2 frames active ( as opposed to the conventional 3 frame start up and 2 frames active … )
heres the results :
-
vs normal throw: rocket won 100 % of the time
-
vs zangiefs normal SPD (LP, MP, HP) … moves become the same on reversal … (2 frame start up and 2 frame active) … but because zangief has reversal advantage … he get the priority as i mentioned before … so … zangiefs SPD won 100 % of the time …
HOWEVER: again there was no EX spark with hakan !!! which made me sure now that the spark doesnt come on start up …
- vs zangiefs EX SPD: theoreticly since zangief’s EX SPD is NOT throw invincible and has a 4 frame startup and is active for 2 frames … if done correctly … hakan’s EX rocket should catch it on the 2nd frame before it gets the chance to be active … and sure enough … this happened 100 % of the time
-vs abels tornado : being 5 frame throw invincible makes it win even after the move is done
-vs abel EX tornado: not throw invincible, slow acting, loses 100 % of the time
**RE-TEST: opponent throw for untechable knockdown … followed up by throw (or command throw) at the 1st most possible frame … and hakan attempting reversal rocket on wakeup. **
just to be extra sure i thought i would do this again… and heres what i got.
- vs normal throw : rocket wins every time
- vs zangief normal SPD: (2 frame throw invincible start up, 2 frame active), rocket wins 100% of the time
- vs zangief EX SPD: (4 frame startup, NO throw invincibility, 2 frame active), rocket wins 100% of the time
- vs abels normal tornado: (5 frame throw invincible start up, 2 frame active), abels tornado wins 100% of the time, AND hakan gets yellow spark and loses 1 bar further confirming that my initial theory of the spark coming late may be correct …
- vs abels EX tornado throw ( 5 frame startup but NO throw invincibility, 2 frame active) : rocket wins 100% of the time due to absence of invincibility with EX tornado
**the conclusions: **
- hakans rocket (all types) is invincible to throws for 3 frames … after that he is active for 2
- the EX spark seems to pop late (on the 4 or 5th frame … the active frames) … i dont know why … so if u get grabbed in the start of ur active frame u will not lose EX meter
- the move CANNOT be cancled from a jump for reasons that still boggle my mind … and i dont get why … this does not happen with (oiled ) EX dive which is activeted from the landing frame… this might also explain why people are getting thrown …
…
I hope this clarifies things and if anyone would like to re-test then be my guest … i would like to see your results
^ To conclude what you said, all rockets are unthrowable and Hakan only flash yellow and used up an ex bar only on the active frames? And that if you were to empty jump, all Ex rocket will have an extra startup frame of a total of 4 frames whereby the first frame is throwable? Did I get what you said right?
correct
so is this correct:
lk.Super - punishes: blocked blanka ball, blocked/wiffed dp/somersault, wiffed tetsu
mk.Super - wiffed command grabs? or wins command grabs when doing at same time?
hk.Super - going though range projectiles, punishes ex.rekka
(so does this mean the hk.Super has more upperbody/projectile invincibility when executed? more than lk.Super?)
drew what strength of super do you use to anti-air?
if they j.hk on your wake-up (not a safe-jump but a meaty), all strength of Super will lose out?
-in this case if you do super and hold the button, will opponents j.hk wiff through you? (upper body invincibility?)
Super invulnerability isn’t based on body location. It has different properties based on the attack button used.
LK has frames of full strike invulnerablility
MK has frames of full throw invulnerablility
HK has frames of full projectile invulnerablility
Assuming the throwbox doesn’t miss, each version of super will beat the corresponding attack clean. It’s always worked this way. I believe the frames/hitboxes for each strength are identical. All that changes is what it’s invulnerable to.
EX Rekka probably has projectile property
Yeah, like C_VICTOR said, the invincibility changes depending on button strength, like Abel’s super. So you use LK as AA or to beat predicted laggy pokes, MK against grabs, and HK vs projectiles. I don’t really get much use out of the MK super, because it has to just be a guess since grabs are too fast to react to, and I’d rather not burn 4 bars on a guess.
I found that, in Super and AE the flying oil spin was just too slow to use as a reaction, and even as a prediction, it sometimes just got hit anyway because the invincibility was kind of sketchy – I think it only lasted until about halfway into the dive. I haven’t been hit out of super yet in 2012; it might still have a gap in the invincibility, but now, because the move is so fast, that gap would be probably 3 or 4 frames at most, instead of like 10.
Also, that was some really interesting lab work EMPEROR_COW. I have no idea why it’s like that, but results don’t lie. I’ve never heard of EX moves not “flashing” right at the startup frames…I wonder if any other moves have this property?
Im sure I saw it mentioned in this or another thread already, but I can’t find where.
In 2012, when you cancel out of a held-Oil Dive into a coward crouch, Hakan inches forward slightly. He slides more or less depending on button strength and how long you hold down the coward crouch, holding HK dive into crouch untill hakan automatically wakes up goes the furthest, its still only a short distance though.
Messing around in training mode setting ryu and sagat to just chuck some plasma at me, you can use this new property to slowly inch your way under the fireballs toward the opponent.
Not a significant buff, but I guess its an option to close some distance when you’re building meter with Oil dive and cancelling it into crouch. If you want to remain stationary, you can just return to neutral and wake up from the crouch immediately.
There are other EX moves with a delayed flash like Dudley’s Lightning Bolt and Adon’s Jaguar Tooth, but those are to prevent telegraphing the EX. I wonder if the flash delay is somewhat related to how part of oiled up Oil Rocket’s range is due to Hakan scooting forward during the move. Maybe those “dash” frames account for the delayed flash and throw invulnerability.
acctually this also happens with NON OILED EX rocket as well … so …
Dudes, I am crying right now this is so beautiful! If I land a jumpin hk, whether I get it on hit or block (not CH), I go to the mk.dive (uncrouchable) > (f.dash > jump over normal > mk.dive) loop that bubafeast posted (props bro :D), but not only that, anytime I land any oil dive I just start this loop. If I don’t screw up, I win the round. Seriously, not once has anyone caught onto this yet, they probably just sit there raging at their screens with their jaws dropped.
Bad news, yes, most (probably all) characters have moves to get out of this like light or EX upkicks from DeeJay or a shoryuken from a shoto, as well as certain crouching normals. However, no one so far believes that you will keep doing it over and over again, much less it being uncrouchable. By the time they catch on, it’s still a good thing to use as the moves they have to use to stop you are either unsafe on block, cost meter to do so, cause you to flip out of a normal in the air, cause you to go over their head, or is a certain ultra. Either way, by just landing two oil dives you get 360 unoiled and 400 with. I don’t mind taking some more risks past that, at least for the time being. You’ll hurt them a lot more than they can hurt you, I assure you.
If only you could option select block with this…I would throw up because of how sick that would be! Yeah, I think that would basically make it a safe infinite. LOL!
P.S. The timing I use after any oil dive to start the loop is just to wait until Hakan is fully standing to start inputting my f. dash, if you input the dash before that it’ll be too early.
If you block Bisons standing roundhouse and reversal light lick oil dive, its uncrouchable.
Potentially could be good up in this matchup. But it only works from very close range, and i guess good bisons wont be doing this poke at point blank range.
something to note though.