2010 SSF4 Women's Invitational: More Info and FAQ

[runaround]

I didn’t say “nobody has convincingly showed there are ANY reaons for holding the tourney”… I was posting directly to CuddlyVoodDoo. Some points have been made by other people, most of which I disagree with. If you want to talk about chess, I assume you read that WSJ article that was posted a couple months ago regarding the reasons the FIDE has those titles, how they’re sexist, and why some people want/don’t want them, etc. It’s funny you bring that up because it parallels this situation in many ways. Yes, a lot of prominent GMs and IMs support the segregated (yeah I said segregated I’m sorry if you hate us using that word but that IS what it is) titles and tournaments, for various reasons… the main one being to promote girls to play. The thing is, this is a REALLY old idea, just because it’s going on still, doesn’t mean it’s still a good idea or that it’s okay. Also, a -lot- of women chess players and just plain women are against this. Female GM titles are easier to achieve than male titles… do you think giving handouts to female chess players is really going to make them better? NO. It hasn’t. Men are still dominating the chess scene in both numbers and skill.

Also, again about chess since you brought it up. A lot of women in that community gain fame based on how attractive they are. One actually posed nude for a magazine cover, and others have “chess sex symbol” battles. This I find disgusting and honestly I’m glad it hasn’t got to that point in the FGC. But anyway… using the global chess community as an example is a bad idea since I really don’t think following their path would be the best for this community.

Well, I should really be packing my things since I have to move out all my things by tomorrow, but I think your reply post was forceful enough that I couldn’t help but shoot off a reply.

You’re right that the chess example parallels the situation we’re in right now, which is why I brought it up in the first place. It is controversial, but I brought it up in the previous thread at least five or six times to state precisely what you just pointed out–it’s controversial. (Only one person addressed that example in the previous thread, and even then only obliquely. So thank you for taking the time to talk about this.) There were people in that thread (of course, not all of them,) against this idea, slamming away at their keyboards while declaiming, “OMG affirmative action this HAS to be a bad idea.” The idea was to get discussion going, and from what I observed in the previous thread (and this one,) there was nary a chance to see anybody who actually wanted to talk reasonably about this topic. Thank you for proving me wrong.

If you read my posts in the previous thread, actually, I’ve been voicing the EXACT same concern about women’s events like this one degenerating into vapid opportunities to march a few sex symbols around on-stage to “perform” for the benefit of men. I think the realization we have to make here is that women’s events are controversial enough for them to be criticized sharply by outsiders, but not persuasively enough that we’ve seen them disappear completely.

Side note/story: When I was little my dad, a chess expert, tried getting me to play competitively. I liked the game but wasn’t competitive enough to want to do anything like that. I asked him about girls playing chess and he told me there were a bunch of pros all over the world. He mentioned Judith Polgar, who is by far the best female chess player in existence, who, funnily enough, has never competed for any female titles. He told me if I want to have fun I should play whoever I want to, but if I want to get good I have to play with whoever I have to. Which is everybody, not just women.

I’m glad you bring up Judith Polgar, because I brought up her and her sisters in the previous thread too. If you’ve looked at her own personal story, you’ll know she had an incredible number of resources available growing up. Her father published a book that tried to prove prodigies could be created in the right environment and married a schoolteacher EXPLICITLY so they could have babies and nurture them to become chess playing champions. The kinds of advantages she had aren’t available to everyone, which is exactly why there is still support for women’s chess tournaments today.

As I said earlier, the women’s rights movement in many European countries is highly evolved, in some ways more evolved than that of the United States. It leads to differences in opinion in exactly what people mean by male-female equality, and if we are able to continue that dialogue in, of all places, a video game forum, there’s no reason to believe that this tournament will go down the road of tawdry exhibitionism. As I’ve said repeatedly (and yes, I’ve said it REPEATEDLY) if this tournament isn’t done right, then it shouldn’t be done at all.

A step towards segeregation is always a step backward in my book. So I’m pretty sure which direction this is going.

I’m going to ignore this comment. I don’t see how it’s adding to the discussion.

Well hey thanks for making any real argument how it isn’t similar. <— by the way that was sarcasm again. I stated examples, comparisons, and reasons why it seems very much the same and is equally offensive and ridiculous. Please tell me how it isn’t. I have blue eyes, you might not… I’m certain less blue eyed people play in the FGC community than brown-eyed people… and it’d be nice to have more blue-eyed people in the community because they fucking rock. Right now since the blue-eyed people are fewer in numbers, their best people aren’t at the level as the best brown-eyed people. We should give them their own tournament so more blue-eyed people will come play here. Okay everything I said about blue/brown eyed people is probably true (cuz there are just less of us). This idea is ridiculous, no? Replace “blue eyed person” with “female” and you have this tournament. Please explain to me how this is so different, because you didn’t really in your last post. Honestly your username could not possibly be more appropriate for the posts you make in this thread.

Yes, well, like I’ve said already, I’m only “giving you the runaround” since as others who have been following this debate from the beginning have already remarked, almost everything that’s worth saying has already been said already. The question is if people have actually been bothering to read what’s been said before posting. Since that’s not the case, I guess I’ll just keep participating in this dialogue for as long as people want to continue it.

Concerning the word “segregation;” I had to deal with this exact same argument in the previous thread, that of semantics, with someone who was so firmly convinced his opinion didn’t matter that I had to practically smack him on the forehead to get him to elaborate what he was thinking. Since we’re talking about this, let’s get something straight here. There are no WOMEN being segregated in this tournament. I thought this was pretty clear since the main tournament is a unisex tournament. If anything, we’re talking about MEN being segregated from the women’s tournament.

The example of blue eyes and brown eyes simply ignores the strong social roles that faces differences in sex. Nobody thinks blue-eyed people should play with trucks and tryout for football practice, while brown-eyed people should play with dolls and become cheerleaders. If you aren’t doing anything to address this issue, then you are being apathetic about the issue. Since that’s clearly NOT what you are, how have you been making constructive criticism to change the format of this tournament? There was a great idea for a 2v2 team tournament in the earlier thread (one boy and one girl on each team); why don’t you suggest another alternative, instead of complaining about how EVO is endorsing sexism?

Also, for the love of God stop bringing up women’s chess as if it’s completely acceptable. A LOT of people have a problem with it if you didn’t know, and since civil rights are moving forward for women (kind of), people are trying to get rid of it, and women’s tournaments have been declining. Also, you’re not a woman… stop pretending you know how it feels to be singled out for it.

I don’t want to see women in bikinis strutting their stuff on stage, getting ready to “handle a stick” while they blow kisses at the audience any more than you do. If you read my posts in the previous thread you’d know that. And bringing up my sex as if I WOULDN’T know what it feels like to be singled out for something I was born with is just making assumptions.

The comments about women’s chess I already addressed. As you seem to agree, it is an apt example. It’s there on the table so you can spin it whichever way you like.

Trust me I don’t have all the time in the world to do this. I figure I’ll stop making posts when girls (as well as guys) stop PMing and IMing me telling me how awesome I am for sharing the same feelings they do towards this and having the balls and spending the time to make the argument for it. ;[

If you want to put on a show for them, great. I’m here to offer suggestions that will make the event actually WORK. Much easier to sabotage work in progress and cry failure later than actually put in the time to make sure it WON’T end up as the misogynist cluster-fuck you seem to be imagining it will inevitably be.

xcfrisco: This is a forum. Forum = an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest. <-- stole from dictionary. This is a discussion. The more people who add to it the better. The more people who add complete waste-of-space comments with no purpose like yours, the worse.

Edit: another note… anyone who is saying that it’s completely pointless to argue about this because Evo staff wont change their minds is wrong. Remember the initial thread? EVERYONE bitched about it, and now they changed it to this format, which is a little more acceptable. Both actions and words are needed for change… not just actions.

Agreed. But I’m sure xcfrisco will want to speak for himself (herself?)

[CuddlyVoodDoo]

u____________u’’

Err now I feel like I was being even more rude than intended since you and runaround didn’t catch that. I was being sarcastic.

Well maybe not sarcastic… but I was highlighting the fact that you said something contradictory to what your whole entire argument seemed to be, which I agreed with. You basically said “I came here to play in the main tournament, not the girls-only”. I agree with that since I’m going for a real tournament too, not the joke girls’ one. Maybe you and runaround hadn’t noticed but it’s about the only thing we’ve agreed on. That’s why I made the joke.

I noticed you contradict yourself a lot in your arguments. You’ve made several posts and I still am having trouble finding where you’ve produced a single strong argument for this tournament other than “I think it will be fun” or “I like playing against girls too!”… … u__u I think tournaments are fun, and I also think it’s fun to play against girls, guys, whoever. But I’m against this tournament because there is a larger underlying issue here. Instead of asking yourself questions like “does this seem fun?” and “what will the prizes be?” try asking yourself under-the-surface questions like “what direction is this going to lead female and male gamers in the FGC?”, “is this tournament taking up time and resources that could be used for something more people would enjoy?”, and “is this tournament really going to get more girls to play / get more girls interested in playing competitively / improve the FGC girls’ gameplay?”

Honestly, consider it as a racially segregated tournament. Say Evo decided to have a tournament just for black people, for whatever reason, they want to showcase the black FGC… some bullsh like that. I think we can agree that’s a pretty outrageous idea right? Well that’s exactly how I feel about this (I’m having trouble seeing how it’s so different). So when people say “oh just let it be and try to have fun”… It’s hard to have fun in a sexist environment. I guess playing games is more important to you though, so have fun getting scraped by Miyuki.

The reason I haven’t made a strong, convincing argument for this tournament, is because I haven’t intended to do so. I know a big argument in this thread is “Is it right or not to have this be a designated EVO tournament”. The only thing I’ve stated on the matter is that I’m disappointed politics have to be brought into this. However, I can understand if people are against this from a segregation standpoint. Again, I don’t see how this is really going to negatively affect anyone at EVO so why the negativity? It’s just another tournament you won’t be playing in and can have the enjoyment of watching.

The reasons for my argument is that I feel people are against this tournament for other reasons. For example, Super_Yan’s statement that it means nothing or very little to win a tournament like this, or DeadEye’s statement about how we need to feel coddled. That is what bothers me. I take those statements as somewhat of an insult and I was defending, in general, the view of the community on females. I know I said this tournament is not necessary to achieve what is intended. But it could help. If you guys want to argue the politics of the segregation issue, then go ahead. You have some validity in your argument. If you’re against it because you think its going to attract “attention whores” or highlight the fact women are not as generally good as men in the community, then I think you’re throwing out random BS to support your arguments.

[Aion]

This tourney is NG. It’s very simple; it does more harm than good, there are more pro’s than cons.

So, we want to get more females into the scene; I personally would like to see more females in the scene. What do you do?

1. Ask the already established female players to encourage and strengthen the resolve of other female players. Basically, let the female’s encourage the other female’s.

Pro’s:

-There is an understanding between the two and a trust because they will be of the same gender. Those who are put off by the words will be few and would not have been of any relevance to the FGC, or themselves (in the FGC) anyway.
-Female players can share their experiences. They are better at encouraging other females for obvious reasons.
-Rivalries between female’s is good, it’s a start. Any kind of rivalry in the FGC is a good rivalry. It encourages you to get better and gives you a temporary reason that could very easily give you a permanent one. It makes people competitive.
-There are alot more pro’s to this but I wanna keep this short.

2. If you wanna do female only tourney’s, don’t do them at Evo…don’t do them at a major. A one day tourney for females to enter only, but if males wanna come spectate you obviously can’t stop them; but if they start nodding their heads doing the whole fish-mouth thing then slap them.

Pro’s:

-Rivalries, see above.
-More familiar environment. Means all the players there can share their experiences, opinions, wisdom etc with each other.
-No males around to patronise you.
-You are there to win, not show off to men.
-As with all tourney’s, there is always likely to be some bastard there turning up the heat
-When a female from among them gains success and goes on to do things it will encourage the others.
-Etc etc

Con’s:

-Won’t be improving as fast as you would if you were in a mixed tourney.
-May create comfort zones you won’t leave.
-May attract unnecessary attention from blog writers, articles, spectators etc when all you wanna do is play.
-There will still be negative denotations and connotations but the scale will be alot smaller.

This alternative does still have it con’s, but this time they don’t outweigh the pro’s and they’re hardly as severe.

3. People need to keep their mouths shut and only give praise where praise is actually due. Don’t compliment a 13 year old because he/she is for his/her age, and don’t compliment a female player because they’re female.

The best thing for female players to do is to just IGNORE and PURSUE:

-People are being sexist? Who cares? Why let those idiots stop you from enjoying yourself and doing what you need to do?

-Don’t let it upset you or put you off because it’s pointless. You’re either strong about it, or weak about it. What people say doesn’t actually mean anything, and the words of the idiot tend to overshadow those of the wise; because socially, it can still be and is all good…if you ignore and pursue.

-Don’t let BS get to you and people won’t BS you.

-If you find an environment unpleasant, make it your own. You’re not on a job, running the risk of getting fired. You’re at a tourney; go ‘me myself and I’ until everyone else catches the vapors and they want attention from you that you won’t give them.

-We need REAL encouragement in the form of speeches, personal conversations (not ‘personal’ personal, just as in A is talking to B) etc without all the BS. Female only tourney’s aren’t the only damn option you know.

-It just needs to be made clear to whom you’re addressing, why they should continue playing, get more serious, enter etc etc. It’s really simple and obvious, but I can guarantee you that it’s hardly ever been done (without the sugar coating and patronizing tone). People are under the assumption that it’s already been tried because it’s so obvious…but nope.

-Don’t be harsh on purpose, don’t be patronising, it can be done.

-If you need to explain a harsh truth, the fact is you can easily follow it up with a good number of benefits. None of us would be playing FG’s if the benefits weren’t there.

-Stay strong. Endure and pursue. Good things are guaranteed to happen if you do so.

Also, I fully agree with Super_Yan. I don’t see what the debate is. She is stating the heavy disadvantages and people are arguing back with the light advantages we already know of. The prejudicial con’s outweigh the advantages you guys keep repeating yourselves with, it’s that simple. The advantages are already known, no point arguing it.

[Galz]

I wasn’t really into the idea, I don’t buy the arguments for it, and I mostly agree with all of the smart points against it. But eff it I’m training someone to win this thang lol.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

theres basically 2 possible scenarios for the results here…and cali ain’t winning either of them =)

will take bets on this @ evo

[Orochi_Ganon]

for real though, i got 100 dollars right now saying this turns into a freak show and there will be an amazing amount of cat calls and disrespect towards the female guests. guys will be laughing at girls for dropping simple combos. i’m very serious. someone bring money.

if anyone thinks otherwise PLEASE feel free to bet it.

I dont mind the idea of this toruney, but I agree with you. Worst thing that could happen. People are so used to waching high level play that a simple combo mess up is gonna be “ugh!” by the crowed, THEN women will be discouraged to play in front of people.

[De4dEyE]

…or DeadEye’s statement about how we need to feel coddled. That is what bothers me. I take those statements as somewhat of an insult and I was defending, in general, the view of the community on females.

Oh lord. I pretty much just let go of this thread since the points were made, but you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension. Out of all those that posted in this thread, and are for this tourney, you are the one that makes the least sense - partly due to your lack of reading comprehension.

[runaround]

snip

I think the importance of building solidarity among the women players is both the best argument for and the best argument against holding this tourney, and I think it’s by that measure (whether this tournament builds solidarity) the success or failure of this tourney should be judged. I disagree that there are only small advantages of EVO hosting a tourney like this; giving the women players more opportunities to bond should not be underestimated.

I disagree that there is nothing we can do to prevent male players from being patronizing and making rude comments while this tournament is ocurring. I made one controversial suggestion earlier in the thread–simply don’t allow male players into the tournament area where the event is ocurring–but there are others. In the previous thread, at least one person suggested pulling badges and ejecting people from EVO for blatantly sexist behavior, although, to be fair, there were responders that said that any potential damage to the reputation of the tournament would already have been done, and that only so much could be accomplished by punitive measures.

Also, I fully agree with Super_Yan. I don’t see what the debate is. She is stating the heavy disadvantages and people are arguing back with the light advantages we already know of. The prejudicial con’s outweigh the advantages you guys keep repeating yourselves with, it’s that simple. The advantages are already known, no point arguing it.

I think that it’s amusing that people on both sides of the issue keep saying “there’s no point to arguing this,” as if the effect of this tournament is already a foregone conclusion. Actually, I agree with, if not the intended spirit, then the literal meaning of “there’s no point to arguing this.” We should stop arguing. Let’s instead focus on creating meaningful discussion.

Also, as I stated earlier, I wouldn’t be here repeating anything if I felt that people were really content going through the older threads and digesting all the arguments both for and against this tournament. Not even all the people who are currently reading this thread even agree on why they hold the position they do for why this tournament should or shouldn’t happen. (Deadeye, for example, would disagree with you on everything except for the fact that this tournament shouldn’t happen; he doesn’t seem to think building solidarity among women players is even a worthy cause, much less having an event at EVO explcitly for that purpose. But maybe I’m a person who happens to lack reading comprehension ability too.)

[MAXOUT12]

Ok i don’t get why their are players who are angist this idea. First off no one is forceing you to play in that particular torny so you could always just ignore it completely also you can still play in the normal players with everyone eles. This whole thing is kind of like an option to have fires with your meal ether take it or don’t. I mean on one hand i kind of understand where the sexist thing comes from but on the other hand EVO is giving you the choice to participate or not i mean would it make you feel better if they had a guys only tornament aswell like realy what is it that makes you think its like selling out… I do understand why EVO is doing it i mean Japan usualy has like three nationals for one fighting (The youngest the female and the overall). and thats only for like small national tourny.

Bottom line i see nothing wrong with going into a tournament just for the fun of it and god knows i have gotten my ass handed to me by enough females to know how well they play. I think you should be proud that your the number on girl at EVO… with all that said though if you don’t like or play the game argument angst this tourny is kind of null and void.

Good looks.:bgrin:

[Super_Yan]

Also, as I stated earlier, I wouldn’t be here repeating anything if I felt that people were really content going through the older threads and digesting all the arguments both for and against this tournament. Not even all the people who are currently reading this thread even agree on why they hold the position they do for why this tournament should or shouldn’t happen. (Deadeye, for example, would disagree with you on everything except for the fact that this tournament shouldn’t happen; he doesn’t seem to think building solidarity among women players is even a worthy cause, much less having an event at EVO explcitly for that purpose. But maybe I’m a person who happens to lack reading comprehension ability too.)

I wouldn’t expect you to know this, but the person I’ve mentioned several times in posts to be by far the most support I’ve ever recieved from the FGC (my boyfreind) is De4dEye. I don’t feel I need any support from him on this thread because I’ve been stating my opinions on my own just fine (in fact I askd him not to post on the last thread because I didn’t want people to assume he was posting just to defend his girlfriend’s crazy-ass arguments), and I don’t think he needs any help from me either, but I had to step in on this one. He went to Japan and saw how many girls were at the arcades all the time playing fighting and other games. It’s not a big deal over there. Is seeing girls play games something he desires so much he’ll go out of his way to hold a major tournament for? Hell no. But if you ask him “hey would it be cool if there were more girls in this scene?” he’s not going to say “no”. There isn’t a single female gamer up here (in NorCal) that he hasn’t supported as best he can; he just doesn’t single them out as his strategy for support.

You’re welcome to argue this as much as you want but the fact is I know a lot better than you ever will how much he does to support girls in this scene, especially me.

the most coherent post in this thread

Oh man. You made some really good points, a lot of which weren’t brought up in this thread or the last one as I remember… like female rivalries.

I honestly don’t like the idea of female (specific) rivalries, but I can see how it will help ladies in this community improve. I think most of us can agree a girl having a rivalry with another girl is very different from her having that competitive attitude towards a guy. It’s because when playing with another girl, expectations (of spectators and possibly the players themselves) are raised because guys want to see girls who 1. play and 2. are good and 3. of course, attractive -___-. The pressure is on and if you show any weakness it will completely crush you. I don’t like this because I absolutely hate losing and I get extra extra salty when I lose to another girl. Not because I think girls suck and I’m good and I should win -___- cuz that’s a stupid thing to assume… but for the reasons mentioned above. The pressure everyone else puts on the two players.

As much as I hate this feeling, it’s undeniably something that will help girls improve. If players want to be good, they have to be competitive enough to not let things like that bother them. If losing is too disheartening, you need to become stronger.

When you get super salty (from my experiences, this is like only 1-2 years, not 5+… so if you think I don’t know what I’m talking about, just ignore it…)… when you get super salty, you can go two directions from there. You can stay salty, ignore what happend, and think “fuck it, next time I’ll win”… this is the path to becoming a scrub. I did this for a whole two years and I’m trying to work out of that mindset because I’ll face it, I’m a scrub and I became that way from having that attitude. When you lose, you can get angry, you can throw your stick. But use that feeling as motivation. Ask questions. Find out why you lost, don’t ignore the fact that you lost. Don’t think “he/she won cuz he/she’s been playing longer” or “they won because they’re lucky”… think “I lost because I did this” or “maybe I need to change my strategy in this situation” or “maybe I need to study the game more”… Asking these questions and finding the answers from a trusted/knowledgable source is what is going to help you improve, because those are the answers on how to win next time.

It sucks to get up after losing a match I [think] I should have won and hear the first words from my boyfriend’s mouth: “your spacing was way off” instead of “oh sweety you did a good job, nice try”… but in the long run those first words are a lot more support than the latter.

Another thing is: girls YOU HAVE TO PLAY MORE. You can’t just play once or twice a week. You have to play hours and hours for years if you want to become good. If you truly love the game (and have the time), this shouldn’t be a problem.

Anyway I’m dry out of words of wisdom(?) for my fellow lady gamers but I think any girls who love the game and are serious about any tournaments, whether female only, male/female, small locals, etc whatever… and guys looking to support girls, I think you should read Aion’s post and seriously think about what he?/she? is saying. It’s very simple and I’m surprised how many posts it took in a thread for someone to produce one so clear.

[runaround]

I wouldn’t expect you to know this, but the person I’ve mentioned several times in posts to be by far the most support I’ve ever recieved from the FGC (my boyfreind) is De4dEye. I don’t feel I need any support from him on this thread because I’ve been stating my opinions on my own just fine (in fact I askd him not to post on the last thread because I didn’t want people to assume he was posting just to defend his girlfriend’s crazy-ass arguments), and I don’t think he needs any help from me either, but I had to step in on this one. He went to Japan and saw how many girls were at the arcades all the time playing fighting and other games. It’s not a big deal over there. Is seeing girls play games something he desires so much he’ll go out of his way to hold a major tournament for? Hell no. But if you ask him “hey would it be cool if there were more girls in this scene?” he’s not going to say “no”. There isn’t a single female gamer up here (in NorCal) that he hasn’t supported as best he can; he just doesn’t single them out as his strategy for support.

You’re welcome to argue this as much as you want but the fact is I know a lot better than you ever will how much he does to support girls in this scene, especially me.

About deadeye–you’re right,I will never know him as well as you do. Your heartfelt attempt to make me empathize for him isn’t really doing the job, but I try to respect people even if they happen to disagree with me–something I am not as good at as I should be. The contempt he showed in this thread for “mere” fun and the reading comprehension of cuddlyvoodoo isn’t something I can judge him for since I’ve acted even worse on internet message boards in the past. And yes, I did know he was your boyfriend–what your relationship is like and what you two were thinking about when you were both posting in this thread is something I deliberately put out of my mind when I addressed either of you–nothing good could come of such speculation on my end.

On the other hand, now that you’re putting it on the table for conversation, I would like to say I think it’s rather sweet how you two have a relationship where street fighter can be one of those things that you can share; of course, I don’t think people will be able to copy your example with any reliable hope of success, but it’s an example that should give hope to many people. My current girlfriend and I practiced martial arts together for a few years before we became a couple, and I actually experienced some very dramatic improvements once I tried to understand how she approached certain things differently from me. (Some of the improvement also came about because I did some traveling in Japan to meet different trainers and attend training camps, but I feel that the sensitivity I gained from being in a close relationship, corny as that sounds, also helped contribute to the different pace at which I was learning.) I can’t comment on what you think you might have gotten out of your relationship in terms of SF, but I hope you won’t think I’m being presumptuous by saying I think I have a fair idea of how a relationship where both people share a hobby can increase both people’s appreciation of that hobby.

About the other things you said, I agree with you that people need to get themselves out there in order to improve their game, and not just for one high profile tourney like EVO, but regularly over an extended period of time. There should be something intrinsically satisfying about playing at a local arcade for hours to improve. Telling people to train for EVO, as if they have a shot at winning the prize without even considering if they have a local scene to see to their growth as a player, has the potential to be very harmful to them as players; they’ll be torn to shreds at the actual tournament and will only have one weekend to practice in casuals against good competition before it’s time to go back to practicing online or against their younger brother. (Maybe I should have payed more attention to this point, since deadeye did bring it up earlier in the thread.)

That said, I still think that this invitational has a great deal of potential for creating lasting friendships for the women who attend, and maybe move street fighter for them past the stage where it’s about proving themselves in front of a crowd of strangers, or getting sweet sweet revenge on random assholes who think “go back to the kitchen” and “stairs bitch” count as witticisms indicative of a worthy imagination. After having read the various posts in this thread and previous ones, I’m inclined to see the women’s invitational as something that should be officially sponsored by EVO for as long as it takes to get the ball rolling so that women gamers in the FGC can start to organize themselves. I don’t want to go into detail here, but I’ve seen first hand at my university how empowering it is when women, consciously identifying themselves AS women within an organization FOR women, organize events (usually open to both sexes) that endorse what is otherwise a male dominated profession (or in this case sport/video game.) The kind of mutual respect created among the women, I am hoping, doesn’t just stay in “their” community but is something that the men will reciprocate once they see women as a sub-community in some ways distinct from that of their own.

That’s my secret hope as far as what I want to see result from this event sponsored by EVO, and it’s what I really think about all this, for all my posturing and convoluted rhetoric. I’d even be happy to see a female community consciousness (whatever that means) emerge in the FGC even if it’s in the form of collective indignation at the idea of women-only tourneys held at EVO.

I think I have also been making an undue amount of speculation based on relatively little information–for all I know, the invitational may not have any monetary compensation in the prize structure whatsoever, and EVO staff may fully intend on allowing men in drag attend the tournament. Anyway, realizing my own foolishness in some ways is quite a relief, and makes me happy to stop adding to a thread where I’ve been on the whole far more counterproductive than the people I have been accusing as such.

[Super_Yan]

On the other hand, now that you’re putting it on the table for conversation, I would like to say I think it’s rather sweet how you two have a relationship where street fighter can be one of those things that you can share; of course, I don’t think people will be able to copy your example with any reliable hope of success, but it’s an example that should give hope to many people. My current girlfriend and I practiced martial arts together for a few years before we became a couple, and I actually experienced some very dramatic improvements once I tried to understand how she approached certain things differently from me. (Some of the improvement also came about because I did some traveling in Japan to meet different trainers and attend training camps, but I feel that the sensitivity I gained from being in a close relationship, corny as that sounds, also helped contributed to the different pace at which I was learning.) I can’t comment on what you think you might have gotten out of your relationship in terms of SF, but I hope you won’t think I’m being presumptuous by saying I think I have a fair idea of how a relationship where both people share a hobby can increase both people’s appreciation of that hobby.

Actually Rom and I have never played fighting games together. He only plays SF games and MvC2 and I only play Tekken. I brought him up in my post because I was trying to explain to you how much he supports girls (myself and others) in the FGC, since you kept (and continue) posting about how much he hates the female gamer community or something when myself and a lot of others know that’s not true at all.

And as for “I don’t want to go into detail here, but I’ve seen first hand at my university how empowering it is when women, consciously identifying themselves AS women within an organization FOR women, organize events (usually open to both sexes) that endorse what is otherwise a male dominated profession (or in this case sport/video game.)”

That’s great but that’s not what this tournament is.

[runaround]

Actually Rom and I have never played fighting games together. He only plays SF games and MvC2 and I only play Tekken. I brought him up in my post because I was trying to explain to you how much he supports girls (myself and others) in the FGC, since you kept (and continue) posting about how much he hates the female gamer community or something when myself and a lot of others know that’s not true at all.

Well, I obviously cannot build an opinion on anybody from an internet discussion except by what they choose to post and whatever I might happen to know about them from the real world. If you go back and read what he posted, I think his negative opinion of building some kind “female gamer ethos” is clear; what you said in your previous post agrees with such an assessment. Furthermore, his peevish attempt at a Parthian shot with cuddlyvoodoo leaves much to be desired in terms of debating etiquette; but since this is the internet, it’s probably asking too much for everybody to have good manners when they try to express their opinion or choose to exit a debate. Considering how he obviously put some thought into what he was writing, I can still respect his opinions, if not the way he chose to communicate them.

Earlier, you mentioned that you didn’t want him to give the appearance of defending you online; why not extend to him the same courtesy and let his words speak for themselves?

And as for “I don’t want to go into detail here, but I’ve seen first hand at my university how empowering it is when women, consciously identifying themselves AS women within an organization FOR women, organize events (usually open to both sexes) that endorse what is otherwise a male dominated profession (or in this case sport/video game.)”

That’s great but that’s not what this tournament is.

I see I’m obviously not going to be able to convince you of my viewpoint, which is fine–but I do feel some obligation to respond to your repartee. Since you do seem to think that this event can be something everybody can find palatable, I wish you good luck in finding such a solution. If you are willing to be constructive about what this tournament can become instead of narrowly focusing on some perceived slight against your personal dignity, I don’t see what there is for us to be arguing about.

Edit: Also, fyi, I was only correcting some typos in my previous post just as you responded, so there’s nothing content-wise that I changed in the edit in my previous post.

[Ghier]

DevilJin01 I dunno how sarcastic you were being but I wouldn’t enter if it was $1000 pot and I was guaranteed to win because

1. SFIV is garbage.
2. SSFIV is probably going to be garbage because (see above).
3. I’m not a sellout.
4. It wouldn’t prove anything. If I played and was good at SFIV and actually won, it wouldn’t mean shit. It’s like “oh boy I won a competition that was extremely limited! I must be the best!” Then the next tournament I enter I’ll get scraped and wonder why.

^----- These reasons are why I think the tournament is stupid.

When you run it this way (with the adjustment of girls only playing if and only if they’re serious about entering the actual SSFIV tournament) it makes a lot more sense and is less sexist, but I still think it’s incredibly pointless (also a waste of cash prizes) and is just going to draw more attention whores into the scene. That’s what you guys want though right?

Best of luck, I’ll leave this alone I guess since no matter how may girls tell you this is stupid you’re going to run it anyway.

Where are all these girls at? After reading through this thread I didnt see them. Its obvious that you would like to represent them all but I dont see that as being very accurate. So, we have 1 girl that is strongly opposed and hates the game being played. Thats pretty much what this thread boils down to. Saying stuff like “you guys want more attention whores” and “if a guy compliments a girls match then he is trying to get in her pants” is pretty sexist on your part. If they said something like “Wow you are the best player ive ever seen!” then thats obviously fishy. As far as the rude comments and such… yea its gonna happen. No one is gonna police the many hundreds of males in attendance. There will be at least 100 guys who say nothing at all for every 1 who makes a rude or sexist comment. My guess would be more than that.

[dReW]

People are acting like this is a case of reverse discrimination. IMHO you’re failing to identify what defines this community and commmunities in general if that’s what you think this is. There is no inherent need to segregate men and women but when our community is made up of well over 99% males, I’d say it’s worthwhile to acknowledge the women that contribute to our community.

If you think segregating men and women in competition is sexist/discriminatory/degrading to women, you better get your message out. Thousands of women are gonna be flying into Vancouver from all over the world next week for what they deem a chance at an achievement of a lifetime in gender segregated sports.

Nobody is making anyone participate and any woman who thinks this idea is atrocious, by all means, voice your opinion and don’t participate. But if you think that the point of this invitational is anything besides to foster the growth of the female FGC, I would argue that your view is not only shortsighted but insulting to the integrity of the EVO staff. They’ve had the foresight to grow the community into what it is now and 10 years later, they’re still working hard on expanding it.

Let’s go back to why the tournament exists:

Q: Why are you trying to get more women into fighting games?
A: The fact is that more women are already becoming interested in fighting games and tournaments. Yes, the number is small, but it is growing. We can either choose to ignore these new players, or work to remove the impediments that uniquely hinder this demographic from being fully embraced by the community.

For all the naysayers, here’s what I want to know:

For the growth and longevity of fighting games and the fighting game community, should the female FGC be recognized or “embraced”?

If no, why not?
If yes, can you identify a better time and manner in which to do so?

The tournament doesn’t have to be a success. But you sure can do your part to help it succeed or fail. It’s up to you.

This tournament is going to be on the world stage. Let’s dream big.

[pherai]

Saying stuff like “you guys want more attention whores” and “if a guy compliments a girls match then he is trying to get in her pants” is pretty sexist on your part

In socal, the female only tournaments have produced more attention whores than serious players.

People are acting like this is a case of reverse discrimination. IMHO you’re failing to identify what defines this community and commmunities in general if that’s what you think this is. There is no inherent need to segregate men and women but when our community is made up of well over 99% males, I’d say it’s worthwhile to acknowledge the women that contribute to our community.

Is it worthwhile to acknowledge people for modest, mundane achievements because they are an underrepresented group in the SF community? Name one female SF player who has risen out of the mid tier ranks and I’ll be happy to acknowledge them, otherwise its kind of insulting to me, not just because it patronizes female players, but because of all the male players who will go unnoticed who are at their same skill level or higher. It will be a hugely disproportionate amount of acknowledgment because the players are women.

And the olympics example holds no weight. People established weeks prior in this discussion sports are a far cry from competitive video games which have virtually no physical barrier to entry.

[runaround]

Where are all these girls at? After reading through this thread I didnt see them. Its obvious that you would like to represent them all but I dont see that as being very accurate. So, we have 1 girl that is strongly opposed and hates the game being played. Thats pretty much what this thread boils down to.

Actually, the previous threads had at least two other women that spoke up in dissent. Also, super_yan says that several women have pmed her about this. Considering the level of sincerity she puts into her posts, I’m willing to take her word for it.

Saying stuff like “you guys want more attention whores” and “if a guy compliments a girls match then he is trying to get in her pants” is pretty sexist on your part. If they said something like “Wow you are the best player ive ever seen!” then thats obviously fishy. As far as the rude comments and such… yea its gonna happen. No one is gonna police the many hundreds of males in attendance. There will be at least 100 guys who say nothing at all for every 1 who makes a rude or sexist comment. My guess would be more than that.

I don’t think she’s being sexist at all, and I’m not sure what to say about your comment on policing the male crowd.

[dReW]

The tournament isn’t about acknowledging modest, mundane achievements. It’s simply about acknowledging that women exist in the community. The tournament doesn’t have to stand for anything besides an avenue to foster the growth of females in the FGC. They’re not recognizing women because they have a vag and tits and play games. They’re recognizing people who happen to have vag’s and tits because they’re a distinct demographic in our community with incredible amount of growth potential.

We can either choose to ignore these new players, or work to remove the impediments that uniquely hinder this demographic from being fully embraced by the community.

How was it established that sports are a far cry from competitive video games? Do you not train for video games? Do you not practice hours upon hours for the competition? Strength? Endurance? Reaction? Do you know how korean players hit 500 APM in starcraft? They train for that shit. Practice hours upon hours, go exercise, and come back and train some more. You’re right that there is virtually no physical barrier to entry but THAT is a far cry from saying there is nothing physical about competitive video games.

I see nothing wrong with identifying differences or even embracing them. It’s when you allow yourself be defined by them is when you lose your individuality.

i.e. I am a woman and I am bad at video games.
or
I am a woman, therefore, I am bad at video games.

I think arguments against the tournament would be much more vocal if everyone’s point was that it was a waste of time, not because it’s women only, but because it was an actual waste of time.

Going back to the quote from the FAQ - nm the fact that they’re all women, do you choose to ignore this group of new players or embrace them? It’s clear where the EVO staff stands.

[Super_Yan]

Runaround responded pretty much word-for-word what I was going to say to your first post and I thank him for that. I thought your second post was kinda wack too though so let me respond to that one.

The tournament isn’t about acknowledging modest, mundane achievements. It’s simply about acknowledging that women exist in the community. The tournament doesn’t have to stand for anything besides an avenue to foster the growth of females in the FGC. They’re not recognizing women because they have a vag and tits and play games. They’re recognizing people who happen to have vag’s and tits because they’re a distinct demographic in our community with incredible amount of growth potential.

“vag and tits”? And you said I was being sexist? If you’re trying to make a valid argument sarcasm is okay sometimes but that kind of language just weakened it. It’s like if I’m trying to defend black people when it comes to racism or something I’m not going to spout the N word, especially since I’m white. u__u

How was it established that sports are a far cry from competitive video games? Do you not train for video games? Do you not practice hours upon hours for the competition? Strength? Endurance? Reaction? Do you know how korean players hit 500 APM in starcraft? They train for that shit. Practice hours upon hours, go exercise, and come back and train some more. You’re right that there is virtually no physical barrier to entry but THAT is a far cry from saying there is nothing physical about competitive video games.

I thought Pherai was talking about the reasons for separating men and women in sports are completely different from separating men and women in competitive video games. Yeah the two activities are both competitive and because of that, they have a lot of similarities. But sports are rightfully separated by gender because men and women are built differently, a lot differently in some aspects. I’m not going to elaborate on this or list examples because I think it’s pretty obvious. There are barriers for women in sports (against men) because they’re not naturally as strong, and men also have disadvantages to women in sports too. I don’t think there are many (or ANY actually…) strengths and weaknesses that naturally separate women from men in video games, especially fighting games.

I think arguments against the tournament would be much more vocal if everyone’s point was that it was a waste of time, not because it’s women only, but because it was an actual waste of time.

I think most (if not all) people arguing against it have brought up this point, read more carefully. My main reason for being against this tournament is that I’d like to see the girls and women in the fighting game community treated just like everyone else. Girls being “coddled” as a few people have said, isn’t going to help girls improve. I know this from personal experience… and that’s pretty much what this tournament is doing. This isn’t the tournament’s goal but I think it’s a side effect that is going to hinder any improvement for girls. The tournament’s goal is to get more girls to play, but there are dozens of approaches to this that may be a little less offensive and more productive that don’t involve holding a girls-only tournament at one of the biggest and most reputable annual fighting game tournament in the US. It’s a waste of time.

[Ghier]

Actually, the previous threads had at least two other women that spoke up in dissent. Also, super_yan says that several women have pmed her about this. Considering the level of sincerity she puts into her posts, I’m willing to take her word for it.

Whoever sent her pms obviously isnt as passionate about it as she is or they would post themselves. She is still one voice no matter how loud. Her level of sincerity has nothing to do with a bunch of girls who are afraid to post for themselves. She had the same “level of sincerity” about the ladies of street fighter tournament months ago. Its obvious that she has a big problem with it personally. Especially since she has no interest in SFIV or SSFIV whatsoever and calls it garbage in its own forums.

I don’t think she’s being sexist at all, and I’m not sure what to say about your comment on policing the male crowd.

Saying that if a guy compliments a girls match then he is just trying to get in her pants isnt sexist? If you say so. Might wanna look up the definition.

Policing the male crowd? Look just a few words back and you will see that im talking about comments toward the girls. No one can or will tape every jerks mouth closed. Thats life.