Zangief strategy etc

Not an expert, so take everything I say with a grain of salt:

Excellent play overall.

Game 1, round 1:
I’m not sure what you’re trying to prevent by poking out with crouching forward/roundhouse at range. Standing forward, crouching fierce, jab green hand or lariats are more likely to work against HHS or Torpedo and can fill up your super bar.

Nice sequence of SPD -> Green Hand -> Jump Ins.

Game 1, round 2:
At 1:17 you try to go toe-to-toe with a waking Honda. I may be missing something, but Zangief doesn’t have anything that will beat a reversal Oicho, and Honda’s got 13 frames of throw immunity there.

Game 2, round 1:
You open by jumping forward, or hopping. I’m not sure there’s any way that’s going to end well.
Aside from that you seem to be doing OK until you run into a wall of hands, starting around 1:42 or so.

Game 2, round 2:
You spend much of the round struggling with the wall of HHS, and are starting to stage a comeback when you decide to go toe-to-toe with a waking Honda at 2:24 and 2:27. Both times with a jab GH trap. Every one of Honda’s plausible wake-up moves is going beat that: Neative Edge Oichio, Torpedo, Super, even Sumo Drop. In your defense, it paid off at 2:24 (I suspect that Thelo had an execution problem) and it only the second trip to the well.

Game 3, round 1:
At this point it’s pretty clear that Thelo’s worked out that you don’t have a good answer for HHS tactics. You manage to score a knockdown against a random torpedo with a lariat at 3:06 and proceed to do a very nice cross-up, but get caught out by the Oicho afterwards.

Game 3, round 2:
Thelo decides he doesn’t like getting knocked down, and stops sticking out random torpedoes, but whores HHS. Finally, around 3:35 you catch him during his startup and score a knockdown. Thelo wakes up with an unprovoked super (which in hindsight seems like a questionable choice), and you punish him beautifully. I feel like the standing short at 3:43 should have been followed by something. And, you might have been able to super at 3:40 (though that would have required some pretty ridiculous awareness and execution).

Observations:
You’d do well to find a better answer to HHS. If you’re ahead, I think you can mash crouching jab and force Honda to come close since his best answer is the command roundhouse, but you could also use crouching fierce and standing forward depending on the range. With the new low invincibility, the first part of LP+LK/KKK lariat may also be viable, and, if you want to roll the dice, the forward knee drop should beat HHS clean.

It payed off for you a couple of times, but I don’t think being toe-to-toe with a waking Honda is a good idea. This is especially true for Gief, since Gief can’t beat negative edge oichio. If you want to attack a waking Honda from the ground, you might try a relatively un-meaty max-range crouching roundhouse.

You might be able to find that last inch by using the super. According to NKI’s page, SPD->Green Hand->Blocked Fierce->Blocked Jab (which is almost always the correct thing to do after) gives 33/48 of the super bar. Of course, that does mean harder execution requirements.

I tend to spam jabs as well since I can’t get cr.rh to work often but the jab just doesn’t reward enough.

The main problem I have against Honda is punishing him after a knock-down. The reversal headbutt is pretty much safe against everything it seems although one person mentioned safe-jump immediately into a lariat can beat it, I haven’t seen or tried it…

Anyway Honda isn’t one of my best matches (unless they can’t reverse :lol:). I was actually hoping to get some tips from you evo and will be one of the things I need to ask you about :p.

EDIT
Seems like my edit got deleted. Anyway…

  1. Is blocking the only answer to HHS at the start of the round? I remember jab trades and jumping (even back) seemed to get me hit.

  2. Is range of Ochio within st.lk range (into SPD)? If so then jumping ticks might be needed.

  3. Being patient and cr.jab can eventually tempt them to move forward and do the st.sweep.

  4. Do you piano the SPD after the greenhand tick?

Anyway this talk makes me want to beat up on some Hondas. I’ve played a few good Hondas but not Thelo yet.

The slaps are most vulnerable at mid body height and don’t hit very high, so:

Standing foward (may not work because of spacing)
Crouching fierce punch
Neutral jump roundhouse (use fierce to cover landing to protect vs Torpedo)
Foward jumps down+forward (very unsafe)
Forward jump fierce (very unsafe)
Possibly LP+LK lariat while moving foward (HDR only)

You tried this stuff at the start of the round?

No, but that’s (more or less) the list of moves that have hitboxes which beat HHS. You basically have to have an assistant to test what works on that list.

Yup but I’m wondering what beats HHS at the start of the round or can all Zangief do is block?

I see opening moves like paper, scissors, rock but Honda enters the game with a shotgun.

Crouching jab will beat HHS, but you have to mash it.

  1. You can lariat away from jab HHS safely, and I think I remember being jumped on when starting with jab HHS (I always always always start Honda vs Zangief with a jab HHS, it’s so good).

  2. I think you can st.lk out of the range of the ochio, not sure, but it’s not really safe because headbutt and buttslam beat it anyway.

  3. Yes yes yes yes yes. That is so tempting. Then I eat a jump-in SPD.

One of the reasons it’s so tempting for Honda to try to far sweep you is fear of the running bear grab. That move is ridiculously fast. You could think that Honda could just do repeated low jabs to stop it, but 1) that loses to Zangief sweep, and 2) Running bear grab is so absurdly fast that it’ll get Honda between low jabs.

Edit for Rufus, yes normally low jabs can beat HHS, but at round start the jab HHS comes out too fast and Zangief just gets hit before having the jab out.

Aha! Jab comes out faster, but HHS will hit if Zangief crouches, so crouching jab leads to a trade in Honda’s favor.
Lariating away is probably unsafe since Honda recovers first. That starting position is very bad for Zangief.

Standing Fierce Punch should trade in Z’s favor against all versions of the HHS at the start of the round. It does against jab HHS.

I have not found a move yet to counter honda’s hhh in the beginning of the match…It really sucks cuz they can just hold down back(Thelo) after they get the first tick damage…Having Zangief to initiate the offense which plays to Honda’s favor…

I’ve not tried kick lariat at the start so perhaps that will work.

As rcaido pointed out, the reason I asked the question is that if Honda is guaranteed chip damage at the start, in a very boring match, Gief will always have to advanced on a turtling fat man.

Obviously there are a few things Gief can do but I don’t think on average any of the risk/rewards are in his favour.

Anyway I’ve got some ideas in my head so just need to have time to play HDR to test them out.

After testing, I’m pretty sure that the easiest way to get a life advantage against opening HHS of any strength is to do a standing fierce (or strong) punch and trade. This, of course, loses to step forward - command roundhouse which also almost hits Zangief when the round opens.

Jab HHS is fast enough and has enough reach that it will hit the first jumping frame of jumps, and will hit crouching frames. The only choices that do not get hit/chipped by it are lariats and standing neutral/block. Strong and Fierce HHS can run down the lariats, and will hit/chip standing neutral block, so it’s got to be some kind of trade or sacrifice play.

I just had a crazy match set with my Zangief vs. Bill AKA E.Honda’s E. Honda at NECX.

We went 2x double perfect (4 rounds) to get a null match set.
I won the next match set, and then he won the 3rd, and we had a very even 4th set that he figured me out on. (I lost the 3rd set because of a combo mistake)

Hard match up.

Don’t know if it has been posted anywhere but lately to counter a super I’ve been SPD’ing them out of the start-up animation. I know and have did the SPD while Blanka rolls towards me but thats always hit or miss. Now what I’m doing is when I anticipate they will use their super I’ll try to stay just outside of sweep range and when the the super animation begins either walk over and SPD them during their upwards bounce or forward+FP hop towards and then do the SPD. This has worked very well for me the past few days :). I would screw it up, though, if I’m too far away and they don’t hold the spin at all.

added: whats cool too if you use the QCB+Forward throw command you will do a normal grab if you screw up the SPD :).

I like the reactions after doing it, usually a omgwtf!@$?! :rofl:

:lovin:

So normal grabs can take out Blanka’s super too?

What do you guys do to counter Honda’s buttslam shenanigans? Lariat works pretty good but sometimes i screw up with the timing, sometimes it trades, but i was wondering if there is a move that can cleanly beat it. Also which lariat do you guys use?

Based on the hitboxes, I’d suggest jumping straight up and hitting up+fierce punch. The early frames of neutral jumping fierce punch should also be good, but the timing to hit is tighter.

block and 360

This, outside of the corner. In the corner tho, just kiss your Soviet ass goodbye.:rofl: Other than making sure you don’t get pushed into the corner vs Honda, I find the best option is Kick Lariat, but it’s not a very good option vs the Sumo Splash trap. You could predict and do a pre-emptive j Strong or j back splash of your own too, but in my experience, they both trade a lot.

In the corner, the neutral j u+Fierce does also beat the Sumo Splash clean sometimes, but I find it also trades a lot, depending on the strength of Sumo Splash that Honda does. The Short and Forward Sumo Splashes trade a lot more than the RH.

I’ve been playing online for a while with Zangief pretty much exclusively. I have lurked for a while too but now that I’m a member I’d like to contribute and talk with you guys. This thread doesn’t seem very active but whatever.

How do you guys deal with Blanka jump ins? Out of all the tough MU’s I feel that Blanka is the most frustrating because all he has to do is jump lk/mk/lp into tick, combo, or another jump attack. It feels like a very one-dimensional MU and sometimes I feel helpless. His quick and high jump combined with the priority of his aerials seem so broken in this MU.