You need to jump to escape a Zangief FAB... or do you?

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
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Looks like we’ve got a mystery on our hands.

http://www.finestko.com/video/zangiefmystery.wmv
(670kb WMV, 0:10 – Please Right Click, Save As)

Much to my surprise when testing out a theory I had of mine this morning, it actually worked. I’m working on a full explanation of what exactly is going on here for FinestKO-dot-com when I (finally) get it up before the end of the month, but here’s my theory and why it’s working.

I use N-Groove, and I was thinking about why it is that I can still jump out of tick throws and super grabs even though it takes me 6 frames to get into the air after hitting up on the joystick. (Small Jump grooves take 6 frames to get airborne, as opposed to 2 for C, A and S.) For instance, Zangief comes in, ticks me, and goes for an FAB. I jump out of there as I realize it in the nick of time, but I swear I’m still in the process of jumping as his grab whiffs.

From the tests I’ve been doing, I’ve noticed that as long as the up command to jump was put in, in the last frames before a super flash of a quick super grab like Zangief’s FAB, the game instantly considers you airborne for the purposes of escaping the jump. For instance, if you start jumping two frames before the super flash to an FAB, you will still escape the grab even though you should still be on the ground for 3 more frames after the flash, and during which time Zangief should have grabbed you.

So I went ahead and tried my theory: 360 characters like Zangief and Raiden take 5 frames to get into the air so the 360 movements are easier to do. This is because in order to do a 360, you need to move the stick up as if you were going to jump. However, if the game considers you airborne from grabs the moment you hit an up direction, wouldn’t that make you invisible to throws while you’re still technically on the ground?

Much to my surprise, yes, it does. Starting the 360 (or more accurately, 270) so you’re holding up just as the super flash to an FAB begins, you will begin to jump, which makes you immune to the throw that’s coming your way. The kicker here is that these 360 character’s jumps can be cancelled into the grab, so that when the super flash ends, your 360 input is still in the buffer, and mashing on a punch as the flash ends will yield you grabbing them out of their super! You’ll usually both miss each other (the second setup in the video), though.

This is a rather odd way in how the game handles you jumping to escape throws, and as I’ve found out, it’s not just “counter grabbing”, it’s hitting people out of their throws in general.

I will have the full rundown of my findings on FinestKO.com before the end of the month. Fascinating stuff.

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interesting

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Nice deductive skills :slight_smile:

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I remember this being mentioned once in… I think it was discussion about whether/not you could jump out of Yama’s Drill (HCBx2+P) on reaction. I can’t remember who it was that mentioned that it is the input of up, and not the actual jump, that puts you into an unthrowable state. I’ll go check again there sometime.

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IIRC you can TK command grabs in 3S to counter your opponent’s throw attempts with your own grab… same thing happened.
I think. Pretty sure.

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WraithCO PM’ed me about this. (Thanks, Wraith!) My own testing would have yielded this result anyways, but basically, you are unthrowable on the very first jumping frame. Maki’s and Yama’s Lv1 grab supers take 4 frames to come out after the super flash, and after the 3-frame voided input window goes away, that leaves you 1 frame before their grab frame to jump out of it, provided you didn’t stick out anything.

However, you’re still on the ground for 5 more frames, which is plenty of time to cancel the jump with a 360, provided you started it before the super flash…