I believe I forgot to post this here, but it was found in one of the general discussion threads that some characters don’t need to hold the button of their charge move to dash cancel, as long as you cancel in the first five frames (I believe).
So. Yeah. I dunno. It’s easier for us to dash cancel.
I’ve been running through yoshi replays, and a few players are using this pretty well to keep pressure going, usually canceling off a st or cr MK xx widmill> dash forwards.
Yoshi has a 16 frame forward dash, the fastest in the tekken cast. Poison (14), chun (15), Abel and akuma (16) are the ones from the street fighter cast that have faster/same speed dashes. How relevant that is, I don’t know.
He is is the lower half of the cast concerning his backdash, at 27 frames.
So I’m kind of just winging it here, but if you have meter, you can use ex windmill to cancel out of block strings and instantly build up a counter hit. If your block string hits, the ex windmill will automatically work, if not you’ll backdash/forward dash and get the counter hit property. Do that and then try the f+m overhead for it’s slip animation on crouching counter hit? Blah blah.
Yeah, I’ve messed with dash canceling ex windmill into overhead, it’s pretty good and works a lot of the time vs down back players. Yoshi actually has the fastest charge cancel dash (is there a better name for that?) in the game, since his dash is only 16 frames like you said, but also he can cancel his windmill into a dash on frame 5. Then there are probably like 5 or 6 characters one frame slower than him. Doing charge cancel dash off of medium attacks is pretty good for pressure, I THINK you’re +3 on hit and -1 on block? I know that if you properly perform a charge cancel dash off of a connected medium and immediately throw, it will whiff due to the throw immunity until the 4th frame after escaping hit/blockstun (or something like that), so with 7 frame throw startup I think that means he should be +3. I know he’s not +4 because I tried connecting a jab afterwards and it’s impossible. I think other characters MIGHT get better advantage than this because they can actually do the cancel off of their hard attacks, but still Yoshi’s should be the quickest and it’s also pretty subtle.
Nope. I’m assuming you’re getting this idea from mugetsu’s last post? I’m not sure if he meant you could input a dash after canceling into a windmill (not holding the attack button) as an option select that would cancel if it was blocked and let it complete if it hit, but I don’t think that’s accurate if so. Almost positive it will dash cancel either way.
Ok had to clear that up cause I never thought try to it while its active. I don’t think its been mentione, EX windmill is safe on block (just be ready to tech the throw)
I’m having trouble tagging in Zangief and getting the SPD or the Suplex off a Windmill tag switch.
Nah, you have to cancel before the move actually begins, but you don’t have to hold the button down to be able to cancel. Raven has the same thing going on to make that cr HP CADC loop easier.
If you’re talking about what I mentioned about the ex windmill, let me clarify a bit more:
Because of how ex windmill works, ie that it goes into a grab-esque animation instantly when cancelled off of mediums that HIT, but acts as a regular windmill when blocked, then yeah I suppose it acts as a bit of an option select if you’re doing something like Lk, MK xx Ex windmill> back or forward dash.
Since you don’t have to hold the button to dash cancel, you can mash dash after inputting the ex windmill. If the medium hits you’ll get the Ex windmill animation, if they block you’ll dash cancel and either keep pressure going forwards or make your chain relatively safe by backdashing, spending a meter and getting the counter hit property in either case.
EDIT: you have to hold buttons to dash out of EX windmill, my bad.
As for the zangief SPD problem, the game won’t let you SPD during a blocked windmill, you have to wait until it ends. You can probably hit a light attack once or twice (to build meter or for timing) and then cancel into SPD as the windmill ends. I don’t play gief or else I’d be more helpful.
I’m unable to test it currently, but I still don’t think this option select business will work. Have you tested it? Yoshi’s EX Windmill isn’t instant, it starts on the 6th frame (so fast it seems it’s instant because of the cinematic), and you can only dash cancel during startup/charging frames… pretty sure your dash will still cancel it, unless you input it after the 5th (uncharged) frame, in which case the move will have already went into active frames and becomes uncancelable.
Just did some testing, you have to hold buttons down if you want to cancel out of EX. Was only playing with normal windmill last night so I didn’t confirm this til now.
So yeah, no option select, you have to commit to either holding the buttons and dashing or letting the Ex windmill rip.
Still, it makes chains safer or pressure more possible at the cost of a meter. For regular windmill you use it to do the same thing but only after standalone light/medium hits.
You are at -2 on hit which means you are safe but can’t safely press buttons. If you try to cr.lk after a windmill on hit and they have a 3-5 frame poke or special they’re mashing they will win.
So your safest option is to just block and hope they will mash a reversal you will punish. Or try to neutral jump/jump back. You can also teleport away if you fear throws/command throws.
If you think your opponent will mash buttons you can follow up with an EX SlapUSilly/EX Stone Fists. Since those moves have armor from the first start up frame it means you can counter 3 frame pokes/reversals with them. Yoshimitsu’s Super also works since it has a few frames of invincibility but no armor.
Thanks, I did not know that about the EX stone/slap having armor only thing they also leave you in a similar position to windmill at the end of the move
EX SlapUSilly is +0 on hit which is pretty good. It means you can follow with a mixup, throw / throw bait or bait a reversal. And you can tag cancel EX SUS to do a reset. According to frame data, EX Stone Fists is -2 on hit just like Windmill but it creates a little more pushback I think.
On block they are both unsafe but you can kinda control the pushback by holding forward/back.
Yeah it’s risky and yeah you can get blown up if they block. But that’s why you need experience to be able to make those good reads. You need to study your opponent’s behavior and condition him to adopt a wanted behavior.
surely if you have a bar to tag in off of an EX SUS then you may as well TC off the original windmill, because what you are saying implies you either have to bars or are earning your second bar from the windmill, in which case a TC combo off the windmill would give you more damage with a decent partner than risking a reset, Yoshimitsu of course builds a lot of bar but that just means you have more opportunities to use it correctly, no offense but the EX SUS imo is only good as an AA,
After messing with SUS, I’m not a fan. It does have armour if you time it right but won’t do against a spammer unless close. Never thought to use it as an AA, does it lead to anything combowise?
If you catch them high enough you can TC into a combo, the knockdown is better than getting jumped in on, plus it can be anti-crossup, which for 1 bar is nice, I need to test it out against specific moves like air tatsu but it seems good against one hit air normals
Talking Yoshi alone with one bar the EX versions of SUS and Stone Fists have armor and can be used to eat through a single attack or jump-in (as mentioned already). It’s only during the 14 frames of startup though. I think you’re better off using either an EX gehosen as a AA for it’s 7 frames of invulnerability, or using the alpha counter version of gehosen either when you block the jump-in or their follow up pressure. As for the anti-crossup I’ve never tried but sounds useful to set up for TC’s. Because the armor is on the 14 frames of startup, if Ryu’s do something like J.Hp> Srk, you will absorb the J.hp but get hit by the Srk before the EX SUS active frames even start. (Right? Timing dependant I guess)
However, if you have 2-3 bars, EX stone fists and Ex SUS give you more time to attack when TC’d than windmill. Because they are cancelable from a chain it makes them easier to confirm while opening up more damage during a TC than instead cancelling into EX gehosen, EX windmill or EX poison breath (which should be used for resets).
Therefore, with 3 bars, you can combo into Ex Stone Fists, tag in and charge from Ex to super with your second character. A four bar combo with three bars used. Depending on the partner characters damage output it’s worth it, also style points.
or if you have two bars and depending on the partner characters charge move and how fast it comes out charge to the Ex version, for a three bar combo with two bars used.
Ending a combo with any light, light xx Lk poison breath sets up the perfect immediate jump for the air target combo on a quick standing opponent.
Also good for empty jump >throws.