Yagyou Dama: The Game Ending Super

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
1

As the title of this thread implies, Yagyou Dama is arguably Oro’s best Super Art. Now I’m sure lots of you are already thinking, “WTF is this asshole talking about? Everyone knows Tengu Stone is shiznight.” No argument here. Tengu Stone is an extremely powerful Super Art, with properties that can potentially deal huge chunks of damage or put you into a position where the game is pretty much over. Unfortunately, Tengu Stone has as many weaknesses as it does strengths:

  1. Regular Tengu pressure can be nullified by certain moves.
  • EX Lightning Legs
  • Certain wake up supers
  • Well timed DP type moves
  1. No EX Sun Disk
  • Oro’s best EX can scarcely be used if you’ve chosen Tengu Stone. The reason being that the main strategy when using SA3 is to build your meter; you really can’t afford to waste Tengu meter on any EX move that Oro has, unless you’re attempting to chip a win or set up a ghetto corner unblockable. But honestly, if you’re playing against a character that can be crossed up in the corner, you should (with the exception being Akuma) be using SA2 anyways.
  1. EX Tengu Stone is only really effective after a reset.
  • Just compare the damage. You’ll notice that against certain characters, most notably ken/ryu, the damage of a comboed EX Tengu setup does barely a third of their health. The payout isn’t sufficient for the amount of meter given.

All this aside, Tengu Stone is still a very good super, just not (in my opinion) the best of his Super Arts.

Let’s go over Yagyou Dama’s strengths and weaknesses.

Pros:

  1. EX Sun Disk galore.
    Few moves apply greater pressure than a well placed EX Sun Disk. A well timed and placed EX Sundisk will ALWAYS provide an opportunity for good damage. And the best part about the EX Sundisk is that you’ll almost always have one stocked if you’ve chosen SA2.

  2. Unblockables
    These can be set up with either an EX Sundisk or Yagyou Dama. In regards to parrying, this unblockable is nothing like Urien’s mid-screen unblockable. The parry timing is EXTREMELY difficult to input. Even the most advanced players can’t escape Oro’s unblockable loop. Trust me, it’s nearly impossible to escape. Which means that as soon as you nail the close standing strong, and your within the unblockable boundaries, the round is pretty much over.

Cons:

  1. Unblockable loops can’t be set up on every character.
    -Yun/Yang
    -Akuma
    Since the twins have retarded hit boxes, you can’t juggle them like everyone else. The loop just can’t be accomplished on them. And Akuma can just teleport, so nuts to that.

  2. Strategy centers around landing the unblockable loop.
    Let’s face it, landing a close standing strong against certain characters, especially in the hands of good players, is fuuuucking hard. There are pretty much 3 conditions in which you’re going to get this loop off:
    a) They fuck up and wiff something you can punish with close standing strong.
    b) You fish/bait the parry, bait a throw, or red parry.
    c) You nail them with a jump in.
    None of this shit is easy to do, and you’ll probably die before one of the conditions are met. Remember this.

Understanding all this, I think Yagyou can be looked at more favorably than Tengu; the fact being that although both supers can apply awesome pressure and massive potential damage, Yagyou is the only super that gives a 95% chance of victory if connected correctly. You just can’t get that kinda advantage with Tengu Stone because of all the ways certain characters have to stave Tengu pressure. Anyways, Oro is fun as hell and I just thought I’d throw in my two cents. :lovin:

2

Some of your points I agree with, however there are many flaws with SAII beyond what you said.

  1. Chars can escape it - urien ex headbutt, necro ex chopchopthing, akuma teleport obv, oros ex chicken, and i believe mbe ibukis ex dragonkick too. Theres also dudleys 1 parry into super, tho ive never seen people do that versus me.

  2. Any sensible player will never give you the chance to parry into launch if they have you in the corner, chun, shotos, hell even urien can choose to just keep distance, whichll eliminate some of their game, but will demolish your single major damage output. Its also difficult to do against chun and makoto simply cos of the huge amount of the screen you have to travel to land the unblockable loop.

  3. Ex fireball - a very very good ex I agree, however, the distance you need for it to create a corner crossup unblockable is tricky, too far and the ball will just vanish, too close, and the opponent can choose to move close and block the ball before youre on the other side. Though ill admit, against necro it is VERY VERY good, just watch tama play sugiyama.

  4. You said yagyou can apply “pressure”… In the case of crossupable chars definitely, dudleys jump is shite and its almost free damage or unblockable everytime you activate with them in the corner. But on everyone else, that pressure is nothing more than a really really bad aegis, one they can block or one they superjump ex hurricane or whatever over it. Its depressing watching oros activate an SAII when on low health and they just wanna do SOMETHING, and you watch the opponent be fended off for about 3 seconds… before they move back in… and youve lost a super… Outside of the chicken combo, against chars who cant be crossed up, its really bad.

Tengu stone however, was covered a bit in the previous thread
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=140254
However, ex tengu with the oppoent knocked down in the corner is lethal, its geneijin, but successfully ends up in a launch - roundhouses about 90% of the time, and when this happens its 35-50% damage, for FREE. Tengu also brings good meaning to oros throws, they give a great oppurtunity to activate and really lay into the opponent. Also, catching the opponent with a mkxcommand grab with ure back to the wall can instantly turn a match around, in total i think i usually deal about 75% damage vs shotos with this.

To summarise:

SAIIs success is VERY circumstancial, when it lands, you win, when the opponent chooses to play safe, you have a fucking hard time poking your entire way to victory (thats effectively what youd have to do if they stay away).

SAIII can be used in a variety of situations, therefore consistent damage output. And ex tengu vs almost every char = very safe.

PS: regular tengu vs chun is dumb.

3

I always thought the two supers were kind of character specific.

4

They are for the most part.

As for EX Sun Disc, Oro builds meter fast, very fast. I use Tengu for any character that can’t be crossed up in the corner and as long as you have a quarter of your meter, one landed hit that’s been helped by your EX Sun Disc pressure will get you right back to where you were meter wise.

The way I see it, Yagyou for characters that you can cross up in the corner, and Tengu for characters you can’t. However the thread isn’t titled Yagyou Dama vs. Tengu Stone, so rather than keep the debate going I’m going to make an attempt to move it more towards discussion on SAII alone.

As someone who used to prefer Yagyou against most characters, I highly advise against using it for corner pressure, like a watered down Aegis. This will never get you results, it is a huge waste of meter. Save the meter for when it will really count, an unblockable mainly, or a big Spirit Bomb to chip your opponent to death for a snappy finish.

Yagyou unblockables vs Dudley are incredibly safe, don’t be shy on account of them possibly doing a single parry and then supering out. Not only is the command extremely hard, but they have to guess which side to super, making it a 50% chance they will get out even if they can do the command. However they can negate the Yagyou by supering it if you aim one at them in hopes of a corner crossup. My suggestion is to keep them in hit stun with an lp sun disc. If they are knocked down (more specifically after a backwards throw into the corner), try to aim the sun disc so it hit’s Dudley at the back of his hitbox, this will make it pretty much impossible for him to super the Yagyou if he doesn’t parry. With a little practice, getting the timing down will be second nature.

That’s all I have for now, maybe I will think of more.

5

If you really want corner pressure for a chance at finishing people off, I’ve always liked (after a corner knockdown), EX sundisk on top of them, cancel to whatever yagyou based on distance, dash and mixup c.lk or UOH. not exactly likely to get you damage, but its pretty safe when done correctly, and if you are sitting on MAX (like I always seem to with SA2), it still leaves you enough meter to go to unblockable loop 100% if you needed to for some reason.

6

In regards to escaping the loop via parry super, and various ex moves, I’ll say this: IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE! If it were, you’d think more of the better players I’ve set it up on would escape. For example: Uriens - gootecks, Mr. Universe. Necros - Slimelord (nuff said) Oros - ThyAllMighty, Hungbee. Ibukis - Regency Tony (best Ibuki on the West Coast)

With the exception of Hung (who I only played once, but was able to win via the Yagyou loop) I play these other guys relatively often. And you can trust, they’re all very very good players who know the ins and outs of their characters, and how to escape the unblockable loops via those ex moves. But they simply don’t. Why? Because it’s fucking hard! I agree that it can be done, but I think you’re making it out to seem easier than it is.

Tell that to Ken I., Ed Ma, Matt Chin, Mr. Universe, etc. I’ve set up the loop on all of them via corner/parry baiting. Do you think these guys aren’t sensible 3s players? I’d sure hope not.

You’re just talking about basic zoning. If it happens, close the space and create the opening, not extremely hard IMO. But you’re right, it’s not exactly easy either.

I agree, it’s definitely best against necro, but you have be aware of his meter and make sure he doesn’t have a sa3 stocked, or else he gets a free super.

I think it’s only tricky if you don’t know how to partition the fireball. If you need space to throw it out, just charge down back, partition with a back dash, and throw it out when the dash ends. Knowing how to partiton the sundisk is a somewhat important aspect to Oro’s game. But I do agree with you that it is best used when your opponent is somewhat towards the corner.

The Yagyou pressure is definitely not as bad as you’re making it out to be. You just have to be able to read your opponent. If you throw it out and they try to super jump to escape, you get a potential cross under situation, which in Oro’s case is like a free chicken opportunity. If they sit and block, you have the chance to throw in a mix up UOH, standing fierce, or crouching forward. In the situation that Ken EX tatsus out of the corner, just walk in his direction slightly and nail him with a well timed roundhouse before he lands; more free damage. Sure, it’s not the best pressure that 3s has to offer, but it creates great opportunities for extra damage; however small or large that damage may seem.

Yagyou works wonders against characters both corner crossable and not. Also, it’s a very good alternative to Tengu vs Chun. I think Tengu against chun is just as circumstantial, if not more so, than Yagyou. Consider this: The only real effective way of using Tengu on an advanced Chun is to set up 100% stun. Her arsenal of high priorty pokes and EX lightning legs pretty much make both Tengu versions useless against her if not comboed. And it’s super risky to Tengu rush a Makoto or Ken because of sa1 and shoryu respectively.

7

That post was far too long for effort :S ill reply more later. But firstly ure assuming way way too much about the opponents, the safest thing they can do against a fullscreen “pressure” yakoudama is block, ive seen it happen a million times and oro gets no free hits, a million times.

ex tengu is remarkably safe against all those 3 chars, you just need to know what ure doing. If you dont know how the super works then ull get hit, plain and simple. if u DO, ull create virtually no openings.

Its pretty hard to define a “good” player when u talk about guys like slimelord thyall hungbee or whatever, its all very very relative. But im sorry, one thing i just HAVE to say, if ure urien, you must be an absolute tard to not be able to escape with ex headbutt, it is very easy and ive done it enough times myself.

Ill post more later.

8

I actually don’t think it’s that hard, if you do moves that are airborn from the first frame you can escape them. They probably know the in and outs of their character, but not Oro. After all, how often do those players play against respectable Oros?

9

edit: deleted because I really don’t know what I’m talking about.

10

Not that simple versus makoto however, u shud meaty stone then guess parry, before carrying on. The reason for this is that if she does a reversal SAI and you block it, she’ll get hit a bit, but have forever to jump over and run away because the blockstun on that first hit is ridiculously long.

And thank you sergio, I thought i was delusional when i thought it was so damn easy to escape the unblockable with certain moves :stuck_out_tongue:

I think this topic is faaar too theory-based to bother disputing about, seriously, so im not gonna bother posting nemore :rofl:

But I WILL say that i still use SAII vs hugo alex dudley and necro, simply because it has applications outside of the chicken combo, thats the ONLY reason. And against a clever opponent, it is still very hard to gain the right distance to ex fireball into instant unblockable even by charge partitioning, because the opponent often has so much breathing space to choose their position on the screen, which at the very least makes it difficult for you to unblockable (but not to gain free damage).

11

I’m not trying to be sarcastic, just curious, but does this mean that Hugo or 12 can backdash to escape an unblockable? It has zero start up and they’re instantly off the ground.

Hey, I respect you as a player and Oro theorist, and I don’t mean to start an argument really, regardless of my extremely long rant trying to debase your previous post. (sorry, lol) But, hey, I’m just speaking from experience. I’ve played against some of the best in the U.S. (so cal 3s scene ftw) and they don’t seem to have an easy time getting out of sa2. I mean, I totally agree with you: landing sa2 unblockables can be very tricky if not risky, and hard as fuck. And trying to apply pressure with its given properties is also retardedly hard, but if you’re good at reading people and setting up that coveted close standing strong, you got something going for you. Either way, this thread is kinda not turning out as I hoped (mainly my fault) But I’d like to possibly move on from here onto just flat out sa2 advice and knowledge. I just feel that it’s an amazing super against characters you’re supposed to use it against and characters you aren’t.

Yagyou Vids are definitely welcome.

12

I schpose ultimately its down to the player!

13

I haven’t heard any such thing but I think it’s time for me to hit up training mode and do a test, not just on the backdashes but on all the attacks rumored to break the combo. My PS2 is at a friend’s house but I’ll get back to you soon with the results.

14

During the last ffa ranbat, thyallmighty was playing some random oro player. They were using sa3 and sa2 respectively. The random oro lands the chicken combo, but ends it with strong oniyanma xx jab yagyou. At this point I’m thinking, “Well, there goes his chance for a loop.” But to my surprise, the random guy dashed and was able to cross up Thy while he was tech rolling. After he crossed him up I forgot what he followed up with, but the point of the story is: you can land an unblockable after oniyanma xx yagyou if you dash to cross up their tech roll. I know crossing up people who are techrolling can only be achieved on certain characters, but I don’t currently have my system to test it out. Anyone know who those characters might be? Thanks

15

Just to put in my two cents, i was just at Seasons Beatings a week or two ago, and i played AdamB from toronto, he easily escaped my unblockable loop by parrying out. Also, chun li/makoto can just parry down to escapse yagyou unless you dash x3 walk a little bit and then unblock them, in other words its kinda worthless. And against urien, the headbutt is an easy escape, in his case unblockable tengu and corner pressure ftw.

16

One more thing, youd be suprised how good corner pressure with yagyou is. If you happen to break their guard quickly you can end with mk x command grab, or chicken into corner reset for big damage/stun. Never disregard even the most seemingly useless tactics.

17

It’s easy to parry out until you start to mix up your timing. If you do the mp crossup high in the air they can escape by parrying down, but if you do it right on top of them they have to escape by parrying left and right. Escaping is a guessing game.

Edit: Oh and you can mix it up other ways too, like walk forward rather than dash, or dash once and double jump over. These help to keep your opponent in submission because they all require different timing to parry out.

As for doing the drill into Yagyou, I’ve never seen anyone do it so I don’t know who it works on, but you have to be quick to check if your opponent tech rolls or not, so it’s probably not worth it, guaranteed damage is what you want with Yagyou.

18

There are too many ways to mix up with the unblockable loop. The most obvious one is changing the timing of your double jump. You can do crossup mk, mixed with jump over nothing, then cr lk on landing then carry on with the launch. Minimal extra damage with the break, but against you know will land the first parry against the ball, its impossible for them to see coming. Granted, againt chars like urien and makoto, after the necessary dashes you dont have much time to jump over, but against others its easy to make it impossible for the opponent to tell what to parry.

19

Ok ok look at it this way if you feel comfortable with yagyou pick it if you don’t pick tengu. Problem solved I am pretty sure when someone was picking ken for the first time and then was like “La ti da I am pikcing shoryu reppa I suck tra la la” (Loses fifty games straight) “I think I will switch my super”(Beats justin wong) BAM their you go if it gets you the win pick the super. Remember its all on you if you really wanted to pick kishin riki right?? :tup:

20

I still prefer tengu in about every matchup i play though.

Cant deny how good and flexible it is.