Would you guys rather see a 2.5d KOF XII?

We’ll just ignore Turbo Ken. He’s overrated anyway. Damn scrub character.

Inverse:

> Personally, I was really hoping 2d’s transition to HD graphics would help it out, but apparently, that’s just not the case. Bottom line, it’ll always be the gameplay.

I have to disagree here. I still maintain that there are two primary factors that a game needs to succeed:

  1. It needs to look as good as it possibly can. The graphics must either be competitive with other similar games or surpass them.

  2. It needs to be hyped to hell and back.

In most instances, gameplay is actually irrelevant. :frowning:

> The Nintendo DS outsells the PSP and offers more 2d gaming than 3d gaming, so it’s obviously not the medium that matters, but the games we play.

In terms of handhelds, I believe there are two issues at stake here:

  1. Price: DS has routinely been cheaper than PSP. Plus, it’s cheaper to make games for it, so developers can make more profit than they can on PSP on a game by game basis.

  2. Don’t underestimate the power of Pokemon! Seriously, Pokemon has been Nintendo’s not-so-secret weapon since it was first released. It was like they found a way to print money. If Pokemon hadn’t come along to save the GB’s ass (not that it was doing badly before Pokemon, but in the few years prior, it was mostly an afterthought), the GBA would have been released much sooner, and who knows what the current handheld landscape would look like.

Also, gaming expectations are simply different on a handheld I believe. No one plays a handheld game expecting state of the art graphics (that would merely be a bonus); the mostly want something they can jump into and out of quickly while taking public transportation or something.

> If we get a good complete KOF, with solid online and robust features, it’s hard for it not to succeed due to word of mouth and other factors.

It depends on your definition of “succeed”. I was thinking, with sufficient hype and everything in place, KoFXII might have sold about 250,000 copies total, or about what (PS2 only?) SF Anniversary collection did. KoF’s has never had a big presence outside of the arcade, and in many places outside Japan (i.e. not Mexico, South America, Singapore, or other places where videogame sales are barely acknowledged), they weren’t that big in the arcade either.

Because of the great cost of the game, however, I think KoFXII’s definition of “succeed” would had to have been substantially higher, i.e. SFIV/Tekken style numbers. And sadly, simply because of how the game looks, it was never going to pull those numbers (note: if SFIV was hand-drawn, or if it wasn’t hyped the way it was, it wouldn’t have sold those big numbers either).

> That simply was not the case with XII. It’s hard for it to get exposure, on top of also pleasing its already robust fanbase. It’s just an uphill fight, but I don’t think 2d, 2.5d or 3d have a hand in it at all… just prejudice to the series and a blind love for SFIV (Like Nokato noted), and sloppy programming.

I’m not sure if “blind love for SFIV” is necessarily accurate. More like “nostalgia for SF2”, which SFIV delivered in spades. But yes, there is prejudice against KoF, though I don’t think it’s from most players disliking it per se, but simply not caring because of no nostalgia factor and SNK only making sloppy or late ports of their games to systems that people actually owned. And of course, as has been acknowledged, there is a huge bias against hand-drawn games (on non-handheld systems that is). The bad netcode is just poisonous icing on an already questionably-concocted cake.

> Let’s hope the future of gaming has the variety we all need to stay interested in the hobby. :3

2D isn’t going anywhere. But barring occasional efforts by Arc System Works and SNK (assuming they don’t go under again), I think it’ll mostly be relegated to smaller doujin-style games like Arcana Heart, Melty Blood, Demon Bride, Vanguard Princess, etc. Bleh.

cant wait to get off work and read this book you guys are writing in here. lol im viewin the forums with my instinct.

one unsucessful game isn’t going to make a company go bankrupt , unless a company puts almost all their money into making the game . on the other hand one scuessful game can’t also save a company from bankrupt if there in serious debt for exmaple Mortal Kombat vs. DC sold over 2 million units but that wasn’t enough to prevent Midway form going bankrupt and being bought by Warner Bros

Just a quick word on image quality:

KoF XII, with all the hard work and effort they put in, still looks quite dismal on HD tv’s. Reason being is that, due to the baffling decision to go about this via sprites, the characters are not of sufficient size to look smooth at anything over 480p. Dot mapping at high resolution is actually significantly more work intensive than simply illustrating the characters traditional 2D animation style. With regular illustration methods, increased resolution does not increase workload, whereas with sprite art it does-a lot.

SNK chose to do sprites, in so doing produced a product that looks extremely jaggy at 720p+ (due to 2x zoom), at a slower production rate and higher workload than standard 2D animation would have taken. We could have had a game that looks super smooth and slick at full 1080p right now but for that decision to use dot-mapping. :sad:

My point in all of this is that 2.5D doesn’t have to be the answer. Standard 2D animation techniques (non-sprite) for the characters + 3D techniques used for backgrounds would look great, and for only a potential ~20-30% increase in workload/production time, in my estimation.

I disagree, you can set the AA in the options. The game is beautiful. They also did it on purpose to keep it old school with a new school flavor.

…I don’t exactly know which crowd ur referring to but the major reaction I get from people who see SFIV is one that isn’t exacttly positive. The 3D models are routinly a point of contention for even casual observers…it’s easily the biggest complaint Iv seen agaisnt SF4 from all demographics. Although this isn’t really relevent though, the question is"should SNK have gone 2D.5"which IMO it should have.

Not in the same fashion as SF4 mind u as I personally think SF4 has very revolting visuals(same reason why I didn’t liek KOFMI a lot) but in a way that would retain the charm of SNK style in the world of 3D.

2d, good looking 2.5d (which aint sf4), 3d, bad looking 2.5d (sf4).

huge rant but i picked up the best point out of the entire page. to quote ultima:

I really wish they had used Kinu’s clean SF3 full body artwork as a base rather than Ikeno.

this here is just the blatant truth. i still wonder if they used this fucked up wannabe superhero artstyle to please the american gamers? the artstyle for sf4 is one of the worst ive ever seen, and everytime somebody does an ultra somewhere deep inside of me theres a wish that the one who was responsible for this artsyle dies in a plane crash. sf3 art was one of the best art used for a fighter, sf4 is on par with the craptastic artstyle used for those shitty hulk vs random jackass hero movies.

fuck yeah, I give up since ultima doesn’t know how to use the quote button

you’re right, Snk has mention a lot of times this game was done by almost the same people. whereas with 3D games, studios grow larger when new consoles come out. SNK has been working with the same people ( if not less) for years. That’s the main reason why the game took so long to produce and why I think snk won’t lose that much of a money, it’s not like they have been working in just this game for 4 years

this goes for all the people who says kof looks ugly, too pixelated

I played kof xii yesterday on my Samsung LCD 1440 x 900 19" filter off

I don’t know what the fuck are you smoking but this game looks stunning

this game looks just as pretty if not better than BB (better shading, more animated) I even like the zoom because I can see the pixel dots more clear

that’s beautiful to me if you think not maybe you’re new generation or you don’t like 2D games period.

they could have done it with kof xii but they didn’t 'cause that would have changed the game a lot then it won’t be kof anymore, these aren’t my words but from the developers themselves

I have said many times if we want the next king of animation will have to wait for garou 2 if that ever happpens

no, sprites look good, you’re probably pixelation allergic.

sprites are big enough for me, pixelation doesn’t affect them

My thoughts:

These days, Visually speaking, if you gonna do 2D Sprites, they better Animate better or as well(at least) than Third Strike. Sadly no game since then have put that many frames in characters

BlazBlue got the “Arc” crazy creative character designs and an anime feel that they can get a pass in my court for their animation(which is good). But with KOFXII, the first time they revealed it, before noticing the gorgeous backgrounds, i notice how the characters were not animated as well as SF3, and the sprites were very rough on the edges(even more than BB).

Im sure the gameplay is fine but, the visual limitations of 2D sprites are showing in KOFXII.

Now i COMPLETELY understand why Capcom made SF4 2.5D. Capcom would’ve HAD to top Third Strike’s Animation in a SF4(2D) in HD, i would’ve been alot of work/time and yes i would bust all kinds of nuts.

2.5D Made alot of sense for Capcom in SF4:
-cost effective,
-more detailed animation(the Ultras, FA, the facial expressions, Ink style, El Fuckin’ Fuerte)
-Inviting to the “next gen”, non-SF2/90s gamers.
-Easier for different costumes

just cuz KOF:MI failed at it does’nt mean its a bad idea. Capcom failed at it too with EX, but SF4(and TvsCap) is a success IMO.

SF4 succeeded for the most part in bringing the characters in 3D(Ken needs work STAT), and keeping the Gameplay feel of 2D Street Fighter in place. I was a skeptic at first but SF4’s 2.5D release was the right choice, and they should continue to perfecting this.

I would LOVE to see a 2D El Fuerte. LoL that would have been crazy. :lol:

you’re a hypocrite, a retarded one to boot. Your argument about nazi america is the dumbest one I have ever heard and I read a lot of dumb shit here on SRK.

I thought you said “BYE” so why are you still here?

for the most part? Can you be a bigger hypocrite? Of course 3d is financially suitable you are just realizing this now? I hope SNK keeps making 2d games and I hope they go out of business… again.

Ultima you delivered the pwnage :tup:

Love 2D games. Absolutely love 'em. Just to preface…

To me, having large jaggy sprites visible is disheartening with the knowledge of how much better this game could look given the right design choices. HD Remix is a good example of a potential design alternative. I mean if you’re saying you prefer to see the sprites like this, I have no argument.

I do think the smaller size of your monitor helps things a bit. On a 42" screen, things aren’t quite so pleasant. I actually gave it a run on a standard definition CRT just to see how that would fair. Admittedly, on a CRT running at 480p, the game looks gorgeous.

There is also the matter of colour saturation levels being set too high in the backgrounds, which causes the characters to clash with them. That’s an entirely different problem though- and likely television/monitor specific.

OP forgot about MI, clearly. Myself, I’m still looking foward to MI 2.5/3. Main reason? My future-wife will actually play it with me. She beasts me in '06 from time to time. Also, I love the series. I’m not all that ashamed to admit it.

Pwnage…in what regard lol. There isn’t anything insightful about saying 3D is more practical…which isn’t a big shock to anyone.

http://www.capcom-unity.com/bigmex/blog/2009/05/18/the_evolution_of_graphics__animation_in_fighting_games_pt_1

http://www.capcom-unity.com/bigmex/blog/2009/05/19/the_evolution_of_graphics__animation_in_fighting_games_pt_2

http://www.capcom-unity.com/bigmex/blog/2009/05/20/the_evolution_of_graphics__animation_in_fighting_games_final_part

personally i love what snk did… i really love when someone that’s passionate about something does what they want to do… and if noone else likes it and u just wasted ur time then if it was me i rather be happy to be myself than to change who i really am or how i act or what i like doing for other people… it’s called living ur own life the way u want to… what the hell does this have to do with kofxii…? snk made a game exactly the way they wanted without compromising for a better feathered, more characters and polished game that would earn them more money… and i have never seen a more gorgeous game in my life… ralf’s qcb+C as for gameplay thank god they went back to more simplistic stuff… i missed my old kof97… and this is the next best not as good but pretty close to it to me… i really hope enough people support snk’s hard work so they can keep the same graphics for kofxiii… then they can afford a story, more characters, multiple dms & stocks, bring back teams & finish ash’s saga…