Have you ever played Gief in any of the VS. games? He’s always been designed to close the gap and get within range to grapple you. In a game where single-button beams and opponents can have tons of cludder on screen at any given time, there’s realistically no way for Gief to get in to do his punishment. He’s not designed nor nearly equipped to be viable in the Vs. series. Same goes for most of the SF characters, except maaaybe chun and cam.
Hey, this is a pretty good point. I never thought about it from the Capcom side, and how they wanted to stay true to the SF roots while transitioning to a new fighting game. However, semi-balancing is possible without flight or air dashing. If you have ever played a good Ken, Guile, or Charlie player, you can understand what that means. Although they don’t have the ability to fly up in the air, they were given abilities to hang with some of the top characters. (i.e. they can give massive damage, Ken’s supers have invincible properties, Guile’s attacks have MAJOR priority in the air, etc).
As far as the whole idea of Marvel characters given an advantage because they can fly, air-dash up, float, etc… This is the reason that MvC2 implements a system where the camera focuses only on the character in the air. Because everyone that goes up must come down, they are at a disadvantage since mixups are possible when the character has to land.
Giving every char the same abilities is just retarded. Hey, air dash is broken lets give everyone air dash. Hey, lasers are broken lets give everyone a laser. Then you get a trijumping Zangief with laser beams attached to his head and why not just let us fadc into super atomic busta while we’re at it. No thanks.
The main mobility issue in MvC2 with limited characters is that when someone has a blockable on the screen, if the opponent presses any back direction he enters block state. The lower horizontal is easy to zone which usually means the options are super jump straight up or up+forward. Super jump straight up will just set you up for a cross up or it won’t gain you any x-distance on the opponent if keep away, so it’s going to be super jump up+forward, which is limited and predictable.
All characters shouldn’t have an air dash, but they should have some mobility options. Characters that can teleport should all have a Strider type teleport (MvC2, not MvC1), characters that can fly should be able to fly, and characters that can air dash should have an air dash. For the remainder of the cast, there needs to be an option to get in. While a character may not have an air dash, characters can make up for it by having more (improved) specials that can be used for mobility, examples from MvC2 are Wolverine Dive Kick, Tron Air Drill, Guile Flash Kick, etc. Lack of trijump can be made up with better air normals with cross over potential and a character that jumps and then performs a certain attack should be able to cancel their jump, which will allow characters to perform overhead attacks into combos without a need for an air dash (Ryu Hadouken is an example of an air special with this property, but all characters need some common feature that does that). The ground game issue is valid, in my opinion, in addition to being able to push block away, if you push block in the first several frames you should be able to get a MvC1 push block. In addition, the ability to guard cancel front step would help a lot. Have two kinds. The basic kind will use 1/5 a level bar and can only be used for mobility. An example is you are a “low tier” fighting spiral swords and you tap forward, forward and you dash through the swords and can block again and gain 1/3 screen x-distance. Another application is a guard break trap after you push block a trijump lk where if you see it you can just tap back, back to gcfs backwards. This dash cannot be canceled into an attack, can only cancel into a block, which ends the invincibility dash. The advanced version will use an entire level bar and can be anywhere canceled into anything. Keep in mind that since this uses up a full level bar, in order to punish with a level one super, you will need two levels.
Giving characters that don’t have a mobility option such as flight, air dash, teleport, etc, a double jump would help out as well and characters that really need it even a triple jump. Characters such as Zangief can have extended super armor states/abilities where they take reduced damage and can’t be knocked down/stopped, except a throw.
While you will end up with a lot of characters having an air dash or flight or teleport or double/triple jump, when you combine it with each character’s unique mobility options from their move set such as a dive set, each character will be unique and make the game much more fun to play. No offense to other games, but if every character is too similar, then it just gets too boring. If I go from Magneto to Sentinel, my game will change from trijumps to flight, if I go from Strider to Rogue, I’m going to go from teleport to dive kick heavy. I don’t want to just pick every char and just mash trijumps.
Ken and guile were my two best low tiers in MVC2 so i’m familiar with them ken is good as long as he can catch the person hes fighting. Guiles air flash kick is an advanced movement option since it give leave him free to do something else or block when its done. Also the mod to guile that makes him much better is the same thing i mentioned about cyclops they took his flash kick and added a projectile to cover the extra space. which makes him far more equipped to hunt people down in the super jump screen.
Also in all of the talk about the space above them I forgot to mention the space below them. Think Blackheart, then think Doom, then try to think of a Capcom character who can control the space below them half as well as either of them, good luck because its not an situation that happened in older capcom games, the best you’ll find is a few downward fireballs.
How about some way to move backwards even if there is shit on screen? When grounded anything from the opp jails your ass which means when Storm calls Sent drones you’re locked into dealing with her cross ups or jumping which usually means more cross ups when you land. If there was a KK backdash in addition to PP forward dash I think it might help avoid some of the lockdown bullshit that happens in MvC2.
You know, what ElderGod said really does make sense. I like it. I like it a lot.
It used to be that all kicks would manually superjump. They took it out in MVC2 for some reason.
I would not want EVERYONE to have an Airdash. I just can’t picture Cable having an airdash. He doesn’t need it. I think it should stay closer to the roots of who in their ORIGINAL game can do what. But I will say this DANTE I hope he’s in!
How about invincible backdash or a dodge/roll for certain mobility-challenged characters?
^Agreed
I’m not even joking, and I’m not saying it as an insult.
And everyone still has the same mobility options, the characters all play vastly different from one another, and STILL they give you the choice to customize your playstyle further with the choice of another Arcana (which can change your mobility past the default).
Shit, Capcom has some catching up to do.
:looney:
^you’re sort of right…but not.
while a lot of moves are different in arcana (and I love arcana) it’s not nearly as different gameplay (or maybe gameplan?) wise as the characters/teams in mvc2 are. with everyone having different mobility options…and even the dashes and flying modes varying between everyone. especially taking into account that not everyone uses their dashes the same way in mvc2 like it’s mostly done in AH.
what with the zoning of thrax, rush of MSP, traps of clock/spiral, BHs dash in his skyborne zone game, etc. etc. (it could really go on much more how the actual gameplay and use of dashes and other mobility options vary greatly for marvel chars).
AH does have variety with tools, options, attacks. but a lot of the stuff utilizing dashes is similar. regardless of even that, it would really just change the marvel feel which has mostly been the same for a long time.
now airdashes for balancing issues could help…but I feel other routes should be taken first. many of which have been mentioned. if none of that still seems to help, perhaps the character shouldn’t be in what marvel 3v3 has become.
if we were to take mvc2 as an example…I would only add airdashes to the bottom of the bottom. 1 reason being how it would really lessen the variety like I mentioned above…but also because not everyone should really get some. like strider, sentinel, spiral? they should not get airdashes imo. their gameplay is unique already…and it might even make some too strong. the same for strong low/mid tiers like bulleta, megaman, ruby heart, etc. air dashes would really ruin what uniqueness they have…and might alter their game/make them really strong/there are lower tiers that could use air dashes before them
none of the characters get air-dash… (runs and hides) no but in all seriousness, I don’t want the game to play anything like TvC…
Ya i can’t see MM having air dash. His size gives him advantages as is with his rocket punch dmg power shots. And Ruby has a move IMO that’s better than an airdash. Strider teleports(very useful) and Sentinel(Enough Said). Cable with airdash LOL
can’t believe I forgot about cable. yes. airdashes should definitely not be given to everyone if this game is to stay in the spirit of marvel like every preceding game (mostly) has
maybe just the really low tier chars that aren’t all that interesting, have 0 mobility options, tricks, gimmicks, weak damage.
Well I’m pretty sure the whole point of a universel mechanic like this would be to avoid making characters that soely exist to get horribly, horribly ****ed by the rest of the cast anyway, I’m sure Capcom wouldn’t intentionaly make more than one character that crappy in this day and age so how would they know who exactly to give the airdashs to anyway if the bottom tiers were going to be cherry picked to receive it?
they work better on balance, don’t put characters in who don’t belong, and there we go. we don’t have everyone having the same boring airdash. even then, I’m sure they could tell off the get go which characters would fit the criteria I mentioned and should get an airdash. I mean…simply comparing mvc2 ryu to anyone from mid tier and up…and you can easily tell he’ll probably need an airdash. same for gief, jin, etc.
Wohoo! Marvel vs… eh… Strider?
On another note, what’s with ppl not wanting MvC3 to play anything like TvC? (I really enjoy TvC)
Didn’t you all know? Air dash is the new super meter for 2D fighters. If it’s in, it’s universal. If it’s not in, the game sux (haha I joke, I kid, SF4 is awright).
I understand why TvC has (nearly) universal air dashes. They looked at other over the top 2D fighters, noticed they had universal air dashes, noticed that for a lot of those games most characters were playable, and went “Hey, let’s try that! And while we’re at it, let’s steal Roman Cancel and Burst from GG and BB!” But hey, it worked (I still shout out “Burst!” and then correct myself with a sarcastic “rather, me-ga-crush” from time to time).
I seem to remember an interview where some capcom rep said something along the lines of “if TvC does well, MvC3 isn’t too far off the horizon.” That makes me think it’s going to be a TvC versimalitude, which I honestly wouldn’t mind.
because tvc is tvc and the marvel/VS series is it’s own game that has mostly stayed true throughout out it’s iterations. they are very different from each other and should stay that way.
I agree with ElderGOD on mostly everything he said. Giving every character airdash would help with mobility but it still wouldn’t help with balancing issues. Do you really think, Ryu or Gief would have been that much more effective against Storm or Cable in MVC2 with an airdash? Even if you gave some characters a tri-jump they would still suck because lack of range on normals. Most of the Marvel characters had too many stupid properties for an airdash to be even worth adding in MVC2.
Storm’s S.HK, ground typhoon going thru damn near everything including supers, flying off screen.
Blackheart’s air game and god tail.
Cable would still be a nusiance if you couldn’t connect multiple AHVB. Just to mention a few.
If you gave everybody trijumps and airdashes it would be damn near like 3s and parrying, people who mastered it would love it but the people who couldn’t would hate it.