It is not my intention to start a flame-war or anything, I’m merely just curious. I noticed many ST players dislike HDR but I’m finding it difficult to understand why given the balance changes.

-Vega is no longer bullshit
-Cammy is still crap but much better
-Zangief is much better
-Dee-Jay has more anti-Shoto tools
-Honda can’t Ochio loop
-Some retarded matchups became less retarded (Cammy-Hawk-Gief/Honda)

And so forth. If the dislike for it is simply dislike, then, ok.

I personally don’t hate HDR. I play both, but favor ST.

To a lot of people, ST is perfect as it is. It’s been around for almost 20 years now and people still play it to this day. It’s classic and although many will probably disagree with this, there is nothing wrong with ST as it is. If you disagree that is fine, but the saying “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” comes to mind. Yes, I acknowledge that things like Claw’s dive are broken, but that’s the way we like it. Things like that are just part of the game.

Another point of contention is the speed difference. Yes it’s minute, but it throws off the timing of things. Personally, it doesn’t bother me, but it does to other people.

Another thing about HDR is that it was originally just supposed to be a graphically upgraded version of ST to keep people occupied until SF4 came out. That’s it. But then Sirlin takes it upon himself to mess around with things. From what I understand, it wasn’t like Capcom said "“we acknowledge your understanding of ST and we want you to make it better.” Sirlin decided that he would make an upgraded version of the game simply because he COULD. I’m willing to admit that a lot of the balance changes he made were for the better. But still, to a lot of diehard ST fans, Sirlin’s version of ST is the equivalent to Coke II or Crystal Pepsi: he took something that was great the way it was and mucked it up.

Finally, a lot of ST people blame HDR and Sirlin for taking a dying community and splitting it up. It’s just stupid because I like both games and see that we pretty much like that classic old school ST era of game play, but now it seems a lot of people feel you can’t do both. Or perhaps it’s more like “why should I do both?” Again, HDR wasn’t supposed to be HDR, just ST with a shiny new coat. But along comes Sirlin and now there’s this artificial version of ST floating around that is getting media attention and EVO is even headlining. It’s difficult enough to keep ST alive for 20 years, but now there’s competition.

tl;dr: It’s an artificial version of ST that was never supposed to be until one guy decided that he knew better than everybody else and took it upon himself to go behind Capcom’s back and tweak the gameplay to something that he felt was appropriate, and then went on media interviews claiming he made the 6th and final version of Street Fighter when people feel that ST was the final version.

Did I mention I still like HDR?

Because certain people got embarrassed. They denounced the game and their crew followed along. And in doing so they killed SF2.

I’ve tried to put it as succinctly as I can.

It’s probably because the changes did not favour the people who denounce it. For example Claw got nerfed, and so did Boxer. One thing I’ll always remember is Roy Bisel talking shit about HDR, only to find out he plays Boxer and O.Sagat. O.Sagat which is no longer available in HDR mode, and Boxer got slightly nerfed. Is it really a case that he thinks the game is no good, or is he mad at the nerfs or the shock at finding he isn’t doing as well in HDR with the less powerful versions?

More balanced does not = More Fun.

oh christ… wah wah wahhh

True but the more i think about it now the worst thing that happened to sf2 was SF4.

If a few entrenched individuals dont wanna play remix is that really gonna hurt remix? Not that much, they dont account for enough people.

SF4 is trash, i play it, i can play it, im pretty decent at it, but i feel like a robot when i play the game. I feel detached from the action due to all the plink crap and robotic fadc crap.

That was the game we were given and thats what we have to live with. Sadly a lot of people got wowed by the cut scenes and left sf2. I left too for a while and then i realised the game is awful.

It’s such a shame people think so badly of sirlin. I used to think he was an idiot but the reality is he is a really smart guy and he tried his best for the sf2 community only to have it thrown back in his face.

Elton - the whole purpose of SF4 was to bring in the mainstream. It has easily accomplished that, look no further than the numerous videos of events where hipsters are screaming “DAT SO GDLK YO!”. Funny enough, Ono was quoted as saying he wants to bring in more of the SF2 players crowd. Yeah? Well, start by making a better game. We can only HOPE that SF5 turns out to be a good combination of rushdown, zoning, and mind-games. As it stands now, with AE, the series is just mindless combos and acrobatics. I don’t know if you’ve seen what they’ve created with Yun and Yang, but Ono pretty much admitted he made them overpowered.

As for ST/HDR? Damn, I wouldn’t mind if ST Vega stayed the same :lol: Good times. Eh, mods feel free to close this topic - I got my answers.

Fair enough but a lot of sf2 talent jumped ship. Also a lot of mainstream players bought remix when it came out and may have stuck around and improved.

For sf5 take it out of that maniac onos hands and bring it back to basics.

The fadc system is one thing but add in all the one frame link bs and plinking and its a horrible mess. Makes no sense to me when they dumb down the specials and then have strict one frame links necessitating plinking.

In other words, how is babby(zone) formed? Babyzone is formed when old players get beaten in a new game by new players. I’ve witnessed it going all the way back to Quake. A new game would come out in the series and some people would always stubbornly refuse to make the switch. They didn’t do as well in the new game as they did in the old game so naturally it had to be the new game’s fault. In Quake 2, it was the railgun and the nerfed rocket launcher. In HDR, it’s Zangief’s super motion or Ryu’s fake fireball or whatever. There’s always something to blame when you lose.

I can understand preferring ST to HDR for whatever reason. Personal preference is personal preference, but what I can’t understand is this smug campaign to marginalize HDR and the people who play it (including the Evo champ). I prefer HF to ST or HDR, but that doesn’t give me license to be a dick when somebody eliminates me from an ST or HDR tournament. I’m not going to say ‘Well, they won because ST/HDR is babyzone.’ That kind of attitude hurts the already dwindling SF2 community.

I have never had any doubts about that.

I hate mindless stupid shit like cammy drills and hawk dives. Just spam a move ti’ll it works mentality is boring. Making shit safe on block is an extremely dull way to make something more balanced (yes I realize cammy drills are unsafe, but they are safe when spaced properly, which isn’t hard to do).

I don’t think I’ve ever heard gief players complain how gief needed to be better in ST. Oichio loop was annoying but I’ll still take ST over the “baby zone” hdr.

The ONLY changes I liked in HDR, were the fix to ken’s stupid crazy kicks, I could never walk up and sweep someone thanks to the dumb inputs on that thing. I’ll never understand how Aniken can do that effortlessly.

Wow, did I just agree to elton chong for once?

SF4 is a lot more work than SF2 if you want to become really good at that game. Lots of grinding in training mode and 40+ matchup to learn.

And once you spent that much time to get good, the game isn’t that fun to play anyway -_-

Again HDR has like 10%~20% good fixes to ST. I wish the other 80% didn’t get changed.

Feel the same way about SFIV. Accidental moves and sloppy inputs are a mess; one of the few things I dislike about HDR compared to ST is that the now-too-wide input window allows for all sorts of screwed-up things to happen. (Hi there, air SBK.) Plinking…special techniques just to make normals link…who thought this was a good idea? It is nice to have so many possibilities with a decently varied cast, though. Focus attack system would be just fine if they’d address those other things, at least as a start.

Ooo, but wait…completely disagree about Hawk’s new dive being “mindless stupid shit.” It’s still totally telegraphed and punishable, but at least now it’s possible to sneak in some chip damage without getting auto-tagged. It also positions him in a great spot to really get into your opponent’s head as well without being automatic. I think Sirlin overestimated just how much of a game-changer it would be, granted, but it does help him out tremendously against Dhalsim and Honda. The only thing it doesn’t do better than the old dive is trade for position, which isn’t something you should ever be relying on happening. It’s really well designed and implemented, seriously.

Cammy’s short drill though, I can see where you’re coming from a bit more. Making moves safe on block is dull when it promotes less character interaction and options. Hawk’s new dive does a good job of promoting more response than just turtle -> retaliate. Cammy’s drill…it’s easy enough to counter now, but I miss the priority it had. Her low forward is so good already; was it so hard to just space her drill off enough?

In the long run, all that matters is that you get together to have fun playing whatever version of SFII you can. People getting hateful over the gameplay changes enough to put off other players or potentials…remember that the goal is just to interact together and have fun. Even the “worst” versions of SFII are better than most other competitive games out there.

That’s sounds pretty succinct without naming names. I don’t think SF2 has been killed though.

I think an important point is that Sirlin specifically wanted to make ST easier to play on a pad. This is a good thing - for those who didnt pick up ST since moves were just too ‘hard’ to do on a pad. I think most ppl play on a pad (poll anyone?) so more ppl were introduced to ST. Great. I love both games. I look as HDR as a launching pad/AAA basesball / WHA/ college sports. ST is the show. I appreciate the new blood brought in by HDR. Occasionally a KG skips Tmac college ball. Its just the way it is. Just hold separate tournaments. But its not up to me…

One of these days I’ll learn to use a pad, well, maybe not.

i like a few changes on HDR.

  1. Stupid Crazy kicks inputs are not longer annoying, as pasky said…
  2. All ken’s srks knocks down on hit.
  3. claw’s walldive is not longer stupid
  4. Boxer and O.Sagat are not stupid characters, O.Gat doesn’t even exist lol.

my roots lies on HDR i still love and play the game…

A few months ago i decided to play HDR again and i felt everything is so easy to do, :S what’s the point?, since i switched to ST, my execution is more accurate, i’m not saying that i’m better than before, but i have to be honest with myself, now i have a better execution thanks to ST.

So much truth it hurts.

Mr wizard also stated the only thing that kep sf2 at evo was hdr, but most peopel who hate it seem to ignore that fact :frowning:

I agree.

Projectiles are spammed more than any type of move in Street Fighter.

Unless they’re thrown from a really close (stupid) distance, projectiles are always safe on block.

Inorite? We should just give everyone a fireball, then the game would truly be balanced!