Gonna try Hawk/Vergil/Arthur as well
Hawk backed by Daggers is incredible. SpiderDan’s team of Hawk Task Art (I believe he shuffles the order based on matchups) is such a brilliant design. The night he whipped my ass with it was extremely eye-opening. Both Hawk and Task have their vertical assists, and the synergy therein is almost magical. If I didn’t suck so bad w/ Arthur, I’d play it a lot. (in fact, I still do)
Vergil instead of Task would absolutely work, but those vertical assists, bizarrely, are a major key component.
Um, I know you’ve told me about this before, and I am intrigued. Do you have match footage of this? The team sounds really hype, AND I can steal zoning w/vert arrows ideas, it sounds like something I have to see (and now that I’ve experienced how nasty Hawkeye is with Task’s vertical arrows, I am excited to see what someone more experienced with the pair does with it)
Yeah that team sound interresting
I was using Task-A for a very long time but Task-Y is just so godlike for Hawkeye. You can call Task-Y to stop Vajra calls, and it just winds up eating up a lot of space that the opponent wants to pass through to get to Hawkeye. Basically, you can push H+Task and go from there into almost anything, knowing that the normal danger zone (in front of you about 3/4 screen off the ground) will be covered. You also get a surprising number of combo breakers on defense, particularly if you like to do Trick H shenanigans up close. The downside (for some people) is that it pretty much locks your third slot into a horizontal assist that can keep/push people out, and if this assist is not a projectile then you open yourself up to frontal projectile durability contest.
I’ll see if I can post some links to me on stream this weekend.
Dan, I’d love to discuss some of the specific patterns with you. Though Ive figured out a zillion on my own, would be great to know a slavillion. Last night I called Hawk vertical, then did Task’s vertical(as the point), the 6 arrows rained down and not only comboed, but let me confirm into a full Task combo OFF OF IT. Seriously, if one has some skill w/ Hawk and Task in general, that team and assists just reward you w/ magic, dead serious. lol
That’s why i’d love to hear more about some of your lockdown patterns, Dan. I can share of of my own that I’ve figured out. One basic baseline pattern is that jumping back w/ Hawk and calling Arthur, then doing triple arrow as you fall, times the projectiles prefectly so that the daggers begin connecting just as the arrows finish connecting. Both for combo and for lockdown this is amazing.
Additionaly in close with Task you can connect with an L or M while calling daggers, then cancel into a Swing. The daggers time the lockdown perfectly where you can go for an otherwise scrubby high/low (ie. Swing into overhead vs. M arrow[which just drops you to the ground for a] low), but not scrubby because the daggers cover the approach perfectly.
And then there’s using the daggers to cover a Hawkeye DP arrow (any), or semi-close calling daggers and doing qcb+H to flip over them for a PERFECT crossup if they dont attempt to stuff the flip (and usually even if they do the daggers hit).
Etc etc etc. Team is a blast.
My string of choice right now with Hawk/Task is whenever I get a safe jumpback and have the space, pressing H+Task assist call (h just for timing purposes, added benefit of allowing the string to safely work on Skrull random meteor smashes most of the time), into triple arrow before touching the ground, then st.H and scatter shot. The vertical arrows fall in the gap directly after st.H, and scatter shot gives you frames for days, you can occasionally convert off the scatter shot if they get antsy and try to go in.
I also like st.H+Task call into speed shot, then doing stuff, though I haven’t found what’s optimal for each distance yet. I wanna get flowcharty with this, though.
I have no horizontal projectile assist for Hawkeye, but at least with Deadpool’s quick work slide-arrow becomes a really nice safe confirm, so I’ll throw that out all the time when they try to close the gap on my zoning. That only really happens when Hawk’s snapped in, though.
I’m still new, though, so I’d love to hear some sequences from youz guys, though I use triple arrow on Task for lack of daggers (they act similarly though, so I think a lot of stuff will translate)
Here’s some of my fights from a couple weeks ago.
Casual fights at 2:35, long string at 50:10, tournament at 1:57:25, 3:00:25, 3:21:40, 4:03:55
Awesome, thanks Dan! I very much would like to continue discussing S-D’s team and/or daggers for Hawk, but wanted to bring up a quick digression if you guys will indulge me.
Edit: I feel like the length of my post here de-railed the thread somewhat (which is sad), so I figured I’d edit and put it in a ‘spoiler’ box. So the basic question posed is: Is point Hawkeye actually any good with Missiles? And can someone make a GOOD case that he is? Emphasis on “GOOD.” Please read my analysis of why the duo may NOT be quite so natural a pairing as one might assume, but otherwise, I’d still be curious to see if anyone can change my mind about this (and I very much hope someone can). Here’s the post:
[details=Spoiler]This may seem like a strange question at a glance, but do you guys even think Missiles-Hawkeye is any good? On paper without actually playing it, it seems like a no-brainer. Projectile zoning… hidden missiles… slam dunk, right?
But honestly I’m not really sure missiles interact with game space quickly enough to be able to flow from one missile call to the next(unless the opp continually superjumps, but: a. They don’t b. You can’t really call missiles on reaction). I’ve been running drones, which make contact much faster than missiles, and even that feels like I’m very close to pushing my luck.
I’ve found plasma beam is excellent for Hawk zoning (almost as good as daggers, even), but missiles…does anyone even know any sequences to bridge the gap between missile calls? Teleporters in partic bring this duo’s inadequacy front and center (if I’m right, that is. I’m very much hoping someone will prove me wrong!). There are just a bunch of great teams that could exist if missiles-hawk were anywhere near as oppressive as one might assume it is. Morrigan Doom Hawk and Vergil Doom Hawk being the easiest examples (with the idea that after the point dies, we DHC Hawk in).
With Sent, for example, we can do HSF xx DHC Super Scatter, call drones, go. But replace that w/ Doom ad, after the missile call, then what? Jump back triple arrow, land, sH xx some arrow special doesn’t seem to cut it.
Can anyone prove me wrong? I WANT to be wrong here! Lol. What do you guys think?[/details]
This is great, dude! Question, though… if you’re facing a team with a point that tends to be strong at the opening, will you tend to put Task first? Like say you’re facing a Wolverine player… do you feel comfy with Hawk on point still? When I run Hawk on point I feel if the opponent lets me start by hopping back and creating space, the world is my oyster. When they stay in my face before and during “FIGHT!” life is a lot harder.
Task is my anti-rushdown character. If I’m fighting a character who I expect to have problems keeping out, I’d rather have him deal with it. Additionally, against characters like Cap/Viper/Thor who use projectile crushing moves to get in, Task’s counters tend to impact their strategy more.
Hawkeye is better at counter-zoning (though Arthur is the best at that) and counter-teleport (which Arthur is really horrible at).
At a certain level, Hawkeye plays this game a lot like SF2, only instead of “it’s time for you to jump now,” it’s “it’s time for you to teleport now.”
Interesting. Though with Hawk, how exactly are you dealing with said teleports? I mean, there’s of course just moving away, but based on how you phrased that, it sounds like you have a more tactical idea up your sleeve?
I watched a large chunk of the footage you posted. I just love your play and your team. I think we got off on the wrong foot months ago when I posted a somewhat critical comment, but I’m now 110% certain (and was even after we played) that what id noticed at the time was purely lag-induced.
Incidentally, by pure coincidence, hawk and task happen to be my best characters. I wish I was better w/ arthur since those daggers are so integral to the strategy (I bet plasma beam could semi-work, but the speed of the daggers are precisely what is needed). Plus, that’s nothing some practice wouldn’t fix.
If you’d be willing to break down, either right here or via PM, some of the baseline patterns you’re using with both daggers-hawk and daggers-task to achieve that illusion of ‘infinite lockdown,’ id be eternally grateful. Obv not all the patterns, since there are a zillion when done properly, but just the baselines off of which to freestyle. Seriously, I fucking LOVE this team. Lol
Oh, 2ndary question: do you have a reliable way w/ hawk to normal jump height air to air confirm to ground combo? JH xx net arrow doesn’t seem to work.
Anti-teleport:
Dante- airthrow on reaction
Vergil- he cannot teleport out of speed shot spam (except maybe in DT or XF); can do s.M-S for autocorrect ground teleport punish
Strider- jump back H->arrows on reaction (vs. teleport or vajra, stops wall climb too)
RR- autocorrect s.M-S
Strange, Phoenix (ground teleport): jump back S (this is not on reaction but you can’t really zone them anyway; this can also crossup depending on their timing)
Akuma and Wesker don’t really apply
Dorm is the hardest to punish because he doesn’t really pop out in airthrow range, but Dorm can’t be zoned for other reasons
If you want conversion off of j.H, best bet is piercing bolt with an assist that links.
Very nice. One other thing I was wondering is when you tend to go for exploding arrows. I use a LOT of the DP arrow moves (was funny above when someone recommended almost never using them, I almost spit my soda all over my monitor), but it’s rare outside of incoming situations I think, “now is a good time for exploding arrow.” Do you have a specific type of moment that signals it? or just kind of an instinctual gut reaction, as so many of Hawkeye’s moves tend to be?
are you 100% sure that vergil can’t teleport out of speed shot spam?
i’ve had that happen nonstop on me and it’s a big reason why i dislike that matchup
I don’t know the frame data but I’ve never, ever had a Vergil teleport out of a speed shot (after blocking the first one) unless he was in DT or XF, and I’ve taken Vergils from full to empty as they try to teleport over and over.
Vergil can guess on the first one but I want to say that even if he gets it off, you’ll probably autocorrect during the roll. The window where you release it and he can finish the teleport before it gets to him is… small. But again, that’s just him guessing. There’s no way at all he can teleport on reaction, and if he does anything but jump or block you get free damage. If he does spiral swords he gets hit out of startup, and if he does DT speed shot will hit him in recovery and it’s easy hitconfirm to gimlet->DHC blahblah. I actually like Hawkeye vs. Vergil because (depending on assists) you can pretty much reduce him to jump approach.
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Exploding arrow is a good filler move if you don’t think they’ll run in (and with certain ranges/matchups, if they run in, it’ll just land on them anyway). It puts a threat on the screen that they will have to contend with (I’ve broken a lot of combos with exploding arrows) and it allows you a bit more time to reset your assist for the next H+assist+arrows sequence.
Another question I ponder is Scatter Shot vs Triple Piercing… in which cases do you use which? I feel like Scatter doesnt travel quite as far, so I’ll tend to go T.P. if I want it to ‘rain’ further across the board. But again, just curious your take on the matter. If I’m not mistaken, Scatter also connects earlier than Piercing, but I cant really back that with data. Just seems that way.
Also, are there any relatively common matchups (in otherwords, not Tron Bonne) you believe Hawkeye has a significant edge in that may or may not be obvious (for example what you described vs Vergil)? I know Piercing Bolt can keep a grounded Doom in check quite handily (actually, Hawk vs Doom is pretty nice for Hawk overall, but this isn’t news). And, assists notwithstanding, I believe Hawk has a better matchup vs Nova than most, in that he can dominate normal jump height rather well, and Nova likes to box jumpy-jump around there. Just have to beware of those HumanRocket supers and all.
But anyway, Nova was just an arbitrary example… I’m just wondering if you’ve found any specific tools that might help make the lives of any particular opponents especially difficult? And you know what? Tron Bonne too! lol
I seriously love this team. In partic Daggers, and Arthur is less and less being the price I pay for the assist, but actually pretty sweet (I know Ill end up facing people who will change this attitude real fast lol).
Gotta say, Spider-Dan, really nice work on the design. I wanted to try and change something to make it ‘mine,’ but it’s pretty perfect as-is. I can just TASTE the frustration of my opponents. lolol And it’s delicious.
How is hawkeye/doom/strange ?