Why poke/counter poke

Why do you guys poke.

I have been watching some pro players lately and I think I may be off with my poke game, or at the very least off with the reasoning behind my poke game.

As I see it, a poke is somewhat useless in itself. You generally cant get a full combo off a poke. With the idea that a poke is just a quick button you throw out here and there. How I use pokes is mainly to get somebody to block the poke. And when they are blocking it I use a different button to start a combo. EG: I poke low until they are blocking low and then use an overhead starter for a combo. Another place I sue a poke is when somebody runs in on me. Just to stuff their run in. This works a lot of the time but I feel it won’t do shit at high level play. Especially since there aren’t any over head pokes to condition a player to block high.

Since a poke seems to never leave an opponent in a stun allowing me to get a combo off of it I haven’t really put much into working on my poke game. I know I can be annoying with them, as I have a mate who always bitches how my low pokes get him all the time. But at the end of the day nothing really comes of them.

And my counter poking is whatever. I only bother with it when I have an opponent who pokes a lot. Otherwise I just tend to block their pokes. Something like Ryus low kick poke, I don’t play him so I don’t know which button it is, I know the range of it and will throw my low poke when I feel the opponent is spacing me to get into the range it hits. I preemptively will imagine his leg is sticking out and aim for it, then poof, I get a hit. I normally use a sweep for this to get him on his back and give me the upper hand.

At the moment I only play MKX and SFIV, so my question is really just about them, but any generic FG fundamental advise about this would be appreciated.

Have I got it wrong. Is there more to a poke. Should I be comboing off of them. I have always gone in for my combos raw. Trying to catch my opponent off guard. And just hope my hit confirms are on point. Let it rip on hit. Drop it on block. But this isn’t working anymore now that I am playing tougher people.

you poke to illicit a response
eg: if your preemptively using a button because you are trying to stuff that low forward that you know ryus love to use so much and the other player scouts this then they can use it to their advantage by moving into a space/range that would make you feel even more uncomfortable. or throw out the fireball to whiff punish you swinging at air. if they block said sweep (the button you said you use and they have meter you could get screwed.

cammy for instance if she thought you were going to do your low poke then she could blow it up with tiger knee ex cannon strike in sfiv

also even though you might get a poke blocked you might be negative in frames but if you can still move then back dash and blow them up for trying to get you.

in tekken or other 3d games you use low pokes to set them up to block low preemtively or step the wrong way and get punished or if they try to strike to early punish them for that. mids to pressure them

or if you too hesitant they could throw you.

generally when you play more patient opponents then you will take what you get and that involves poking. you gotta meet someone that will run clock on you.
someone that will run away and do whatever it takes and play as lame as possible.

pokes are used to dictate range and control the match.
I dont have to combo to win. get a few pokes in and im winning. even if by time out. eventually you get frustrated if you see that ill play as scumbag as possible do something and overcommit and get read. thats generally how combos happen at high level play. every combo is the result of the opponent feeling pressured and taking a risk that gets scouted in the neutral and blown up or being too preemptive. Sometimes you have to take risks because the sequence they set up on you is really good and you may have to be daring to beat them.

its give and go, tug of war, picking your spots
this is the general nature of fighting games.

I get what you are saying about not having to combo to win.

I have recently started forcing myself to improve my neutral, by not doing any combos. I am taking loss after loss after loss, and just brushing it off. Because I have a plan I am working on. And as I have been focusing on the neutral I have started losing, but the opponents have had less life at the end than when I first started. And I have taken a win here and there. Which is really motivating, proving to myself that I am growing in the neutral. And many times I have felt that one or two combos would have upped my damage and I would be taking a lot more wins than I have in the past.

But I seriously feel like there is something missing with my poke game. What you have posted makes sense and its somewhat how I have understood poking. And when I play a normal match and just don’t bother with poking, I always do worse than when I do poke. And I know there are certain things like some over heads that low poking beats out. So I tend to poke in more “logical” points. As apposed to the random pokes I threw out in the past just because I thought it was how it went down.

I don’t seem to be able to explain my problem I am having. So here is an easier question.
Do you ever do a poke to stun an opponent to open them up for a combo. In any game. Or are pokes just single hits. And combos are always landed raw. By raw I mean without a pre-attack such as a poke. I don’t just throw a combo willy nilly, there is always read or wiff punish or I have blocked something and they are negative. But I will use that situation and just go full throttle on a combo. Other times I will be moving around and catch them off guard with a surprise combo, which I will focus on hit confirming just in case they block it. And in between the different times I feel comfortable doing a combo, I will throw out some pokes. And my pokes have the intention to irritate and make my opponent feel like they just cant get anything started. Or to catch them out if they press something while I am poking.

no generally pokes are used for life lead and setting up patterns in movement to bait for whiff punishes and combos they arent used to stun
though the problem is that with street fighter 4 and i generally dislike this in any game
there is no stun bar
so you cannot tell when your opponent is about to get stunned
this generally undercuts the basis for using pokes as a way to finish filling up the stun meter
it undercuts strategy and each player being aware of where they at so the complexion of the game changes as it should when both are aware who is about to get stunned.

you generally have the right idea about poking right now you are just going through the growing pains
just by playing more your intuition will go up and you will get better at using the right pokes at the right times to be out other normals/
thereby controlling more space.

but you concept is good/near formless… it allows for adjustments and now all you need is experience and youll get that overtime

What novaroad pilot said is right. You throw out actions in neutral to illicit a response, or a lack thereof. Now is the question, why would you throw out actions in neutral in the first place, why do you want to illicit a response?
It’s to gather information about the opponent. How will they respond to the action of me walking forward, will they throw out a button based on me walking forward, if so, with which timing and what buttons.
You see this dance of back and forth between higher level players, this is because they are currently waiting eachother out trying to force a response from the opponent. It’s a little game of chicken, they are entering the opponent their space and then quickly back out to try and whiff punish a normal attack. Whiff punishing slower normals can be done on reaction if you use the right normals, against a lot of medium attacks you have to somewhat do it pre-emptively.

People will try to whiff punish, counterpoke or even get a surprise dash after the opponent whiffs a normal. Tendency of people whiffing a normal attack, especially slower ones is to block. The next level here is that you can BAIT these type of responses. I mentioned above already the simple act of walking in and out of the opponent their range, another way is to throw out a fast light attack so you bait a counterpoke for which you aready have answer ready. You throw out the light attack, opponent counterpokes or tries to whiff punish or even dash in, at that point you’ll throw out a button that is for instance cancellable into aspecial attack.
They opponent their counterpoke will get whiff punished(or even catch the startup) or you punish them for dashing.

Using normals in neutral can backfire if you are too predictable, especially against high level opponents who are willing to play these type of mindgames. You also have opponents that like to wait specifically for certain buttons, buttons or actions they can react to. Take that exhange i described above. first the light attack was pressed to bait a counterpoke, the counterpoke was in turn punished. Now with that scenario in mind he’ll take a more “waiting and see” approach. You can in this type of situation get up a “free” dash(unless they were looking for that ofcourse), or you can simply walk forward more than you could before. You want to use actions that exploit the fact the opponent is just doing “nothing”

Which brings me to playing reactively. Playing reactively is probably the “safest” way to play, you are not overcommiting, this combined with a wait and see approach. Especially if you have the lifelead and you are staying outside of their max range normals/specials. You wil only have to look for few specific things like them walking, dashing, jumping or their “get in” special(Cammy ex divekick, balrog ex dash punch)and you will respond accordingly by throwing out a normal to cover the horizontal space and v-reversals their “get in” specials.

To make the circle complete, what do you do agains opponents that take on this reactive approach? You use pre-emptive actions to bait them. They can’t simply let you walk forward into their space and thus they press a button. you know the timing and you know the button with which they press it. It requires having knowledge of their and your own buttons their hitboxes and knowledge of the spacing of where to stand so their button will whiff but you cans till whiff punish or do whatever else you want. You don’t have to just look to counterpoke, you can do other things like dashing in after their whiffed normals like i said or enter their space and then jump and they’ll either get punished for whiffing their normal or atleast have to block.

If you notice an opponent constantly standing, walking back and forth, holds back even during your pressure strings, you can walk or even dash forward and do a low attack. When playing footsies against Karin and you try to stand right outside her cr.hl range and try to bait it, the only thing she has to do is walk forward and press cr.hk to be in range. In turn you can walk back and forward outside her range and then pre-emptively hold block.
Another common situation is when people pre-empively throw out buttons which are special cancellable, they buffer the input in neutral and intentionally whiff these buttons, only hitting anythign if you decided to dash, walk forward or extend your hurtbox by pressing a button. You can deal with this by doing:
[list]
[
] Trying to whiff punish(obvious answer)
[
] Walking into their range and blocking so they cancel into their (unsafe) special and you punish
[*] By jumping(pre-emptively throwing out buttons in neutral is always going to be a commitment, you either punish their whiffed normal or they most likely have to just block, some characters can still anti air at the last second but it takes a certain amount of experience, or mental preperation to do)
[/list]
*How i described footsies in the paragraphs above takes a lot of mental focus, especially if your opponent is willing to play this type of game with you. Focusing this hard on playing neutral will leave you open for things such as surprise/random actions. They are so focused on the ground game can get away with jumps more easily. Switching between playing this type of neutral and still having the anti-airs ready is the mark of a very fundamentally sound player.
*Projectiles are an extension of this mindgame in neutral.


A few days ago i’ve read an interesting article from Guilty Gear player “Machaboo” who concisely described what it means to play neutral. It was written for GG but i feel majority of it still aplies to SFV on a fundamental level. The way he described it was this:

[list]
[] (1) Pre-emptive actions
[
] (2) Actions done on waiting opponents
[*] (3) Reactionary actions
[/list]

Pre-emptive actions
You pre-emptively do an action based on the information you’ve gathered earlier on in the round. These actions are done based on assumptions.

As Machaboo described so elegantly 1>2>3>1…etc

TLDR: You use pokes to control the horizontal space and try to illicit a response or lack thereof, you can do these reactively(if opponent is walking or dashing(use lights attacks on reaction to the forward dash) into your horizontal space) or pre-emptively(you know the timing with which they press the buttons and what buttons they press, you can counter these by BAITING these buttons/actions. Do they always counterpoke, then you use a feint with a light attack and whiff punish their counterpoke(pre-emptive or reactionary, both require a certain level of anticipation) or walking inside their range and back out to bait a response. You can dahs in after a whiffed normal, do they useslower normal then you can whiff punish reactively or do a pre-emptive jump when you walk inside their range. Do they not press anything? Then walk forward further next time or even dash in).
There are PLENTY more answers than i described.

Your pokes/normals shouldn’t be thrown out there without clear intend. You can ofcourse hope to stuff/whiff punish their normals pre-emptively but doing it without actually thinking about WHY you did that normal at that specific time is just you relying on luck. You won’t learn anything from it and you will only improve marginally. Constantly thinking and analyzing the situation, thinking about the opponent and their habits and patterns will help not just in neutral but also when you are on offense and defense.

Poking is good when you know the enemy is going to do something and you want to stop it and all you need to do is give them a little jab to interrput what they’re trying to do. Poke away and once they’re disrupted you can pull off whatever move or combo you wanted. make sense? B)

I don’t see a single person in this topic using Pokes the same way I do. Maybe it’s because I’m a defensive/footsie oriented player.

Pokes are my main source of damage. The goal is to use fast, safe, easy to land moves that are low enough damage that the opponent isn’t afraid of getting hit by them occasionally. Use these to gain a life lead, and then play super conservative. Use pokes and zoning as your only form of offense, in order to push the opponent into the corner, and control more real estate on screen. Play solid defense, but make sure the opponent doesn’t get momentum.

Eventually, if you do it right, the opponent will start making riskier plays because of your solid defense and significant life lead. Allow them to do so, and punish them for gambling. At this point in the game, one or two big mistakes should end it. If they don’t, you can just keep playing conservative and grind them into dust. On top of this, you should have cornered the opponent by now, so if you want to go on offense to surprise them, you’ll have a very strong advantage if you do so.

I’ll try to add to the eloquent theories we’ve already seen with some crude, simplified, and concrete examples. You throw out pokes to get an opponent to do or not do something. He likes to dash up and throw? Pokes stop him dead in his tracks. He likes to hold down-back? Pokes keep him in blockstun to give you frame advantage. He likes to jump? Pokes keep him grounded. He likes to press buttons? Counter-pokes punish him for being predictable. It may not necessarily be a lot of damage, but it shuts down his options if done correctly, because even a little bit of damage adds up over time.

Depending on your character choice and the game being played, pokes will either be more or less important and fulfill different roles. Grapplers will generally have a set of solid pokes because they rely less on combos and more on grabs for their damage, which makes an opponent want to backdash, jump or employ other methods to avoid them. Pokes help keep the opponent grounded and blocking so you can go for the grab. Some characters actually like to hit-confirm off their pokes, making them more of a source of direct damage. And some characters just use pokes to keep characters at a range they’re comfortable with.

It’s a really hard subject, because it relies so heavily on how you approach the game, what character you play, and what your opponent likes to do. I would recommend watching Alex Valle, particularly any video where he actually explains his rationale behind what he’s doing, for a quick masterclass in poking and neutral in general. The guy is insane in terms of how far he’ll go just to test you out, sometimes throwing the first round just so he can get a feel for what you like to do and force you to make bad decisions. He’s Mr. Street Fighter for a reason.

I see a lot of national and and regional pros like F3 alucarD, SRM White Beast, and CORN|JWE L Train Locomotive will buffer specials and super motions into their pokes so if they confirm a hit you eat huge damage

Thanks guys.

This has all helped tremendously. I will just keep practicing poking and try it in different situations and set ups and see where it goes.

uhhh…