Another ancient strategy game. Simple rules, but insanely difficult to master. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)
Are people still using ‘Tournaments aren’t implementing Gems!’ as an argument for why the game is bad? The tournaments aren’t using gems because they’re broken or nobody likes them, jesus, the whole point is that they’re just taking too long to set up. I didn’t think that was too hard for people to grasp, but apparently…
Also, I’ve never understood how or why people compare games like SFxT or MVC3 to 3S or ST. It’s like comparing Mario Kart to Grand Tourismo or Blitz and Madden. They’re completely different types of games despite being within the same genre, and their style of game is approached on totally different levels. When someone says ST is Go to SFxT’s Connect Four, all I can say is when the fuck does anyone ever compare Go and Connect Four to one another in the first place?
Despite all this, we’ve got a major patch coming out and the game’s life span is a little passed week 2. It didn’t have the strongest start, but people are killing this baby fresh out of the womb before it even gets a chance to crawl.
How long did it take the SF4 community to find answers to Seth/Viper though? Hell, how long did it take for anyone to take those characters as a serious threat? It wasn’t until long into Vanilla’s lifespan did anyone give too looks to C.Viper and now she’s being called one of the best characters in the game by players all over the place, even ‘brain dead’ which is something most people would have laughed at you for calling her just 4 years ago.
It’s been two weeks. We don’t know all the match-ups, we don’t know all the frame data (some of the data in the guide is off) and in some cases there’s just a lot of characters in general we know nothing about because either nobody has picked them up, or they’ve just scratched the surface. There’s a reason why there’s a ‘video update’ everyday for SFxT, and it’s because there’s tech pouring out from the community like crazy (for better or for worse). Like I said before, there’s the patch that’s coming out that could change everything, but more importantly there is simply more time where we can figure this game out. I don’t even know if the community as a whole is playing the game with the ‘right’ mind-set. If people are dropping it before it’s out a month then of course people are always going to think it’s random shit, because they obviously haven’t spent any substantial time with the game.
Easy, I can spend 15 years learning Go while I can spend 1 minute learning Connect Four. That’s how you can compare them.
Then you will lose at connect 4 a lot
So your saying the only proper comparison you can make between ST and SFxT is really that one can take years to learn and the other supposedly takes no time at all? I’m sure that has nothing to do with one game being over two decades old as opposed to two weeks… You know, at all.
Maybe, but I am willing to bet someone who masted Go will be able to pick up connect 4 in no time.
This is a tekken mechanic, obviously it’s not completely like it because in Tekken there are ways to punish that, but then there are ways to punish ANY wakeup strats in there, so it can’t really be completely replicated.
Valid point even though it’s not deadlier than Mvc3 by far.
I think this is about normalizing hit-boxes, but walking jab pressure is really strong. You may not like it this way but I do, you just have to learn to deal with it in this game.
The way throws work now is to complement standing jab pressure. If throws had a lot of range like before, and god forbid kara-throws, then tick throw tactics would be godlike in this game with how deadly frametraps/walk-jab pressure is. I don’t have problems landing throws though…
I don’t get this, are you talking about gems? Or people recovering health when tagged out… I’m going to assume the latter so I’m just gonna say… really? A mechanic in basically every tag fighting game ever and only now it’s a problem? It was more in Tekken tag 1, and in this game you at least have ways to get rid of it. Even Marvel has plenty of recoverable health…
You don’t list that reason so I’m automatically going to assume it’s something hackneyed like tradition. It’s another Tekken mechanic, all characters had ways to high crush or low crush moves. It’s designed for you to make good reads on your opponent if they are playing predictably, like a typical noob eddy gordo spamming low kicks so you just hopkick/low crush him all day.
They’re different games; I don’t know why you keep making the comparison to Marvel.
Do people still not know how to deal with frametraps, c’mon. Is this why everyone thinks Rolento is god tier, cause they don’t know how to deal with a frametrap rekka (with -1 frame advantage, lol) you think after 3-4 years of SFIV people know how to reversal/mash through dat. There’s even a universal alpha counter mechanic designed to deal with pretty much all the pressure problems like that.
Anyways, you don’t like the game, that’s fine. At least you pointed out logical reasons you don’t like it, which is more than i can say for 95% of people, even if I disagree with the reasons. I hate marvel 3 and think it’s scrubby trash too, but enough of that. It’s not my business to tell what people put their time into practicing, developing strategies and whatnot that it’s garbage. Every game has it problems, and this one does too, but I certainly think it has less problems than Marvel.
Dude you can’t even win at connect one.
WOW OMG YOU GOT ME! THAT WAS SO CLEAVER! I MEAN I WILL NEVER COME BACK FROM THAT ONE!
Who is this guy again?
Damn straight I’m more cleaver than a beaver.
why does discussion like this have to go south all the time?
Oh well…good points all around i think. Got up to about 2500bp toady after I stop playing the game like SF4. getting some win streaks in and playing decent players, there’s less frustration, but the game still feels pretty brain-dead. And the Tekken cast has already warn off on me, I only like Jin/Law. But good times. Playing Ken * Ryu is a dream team, classic stuff, or even Guile/Ken, Jin/Kazuya, Ryu/Sagat, it’s a breath of something new and cool, and that’s always welcome.
Still I stand by most of my initial gripes, think I’ll just rank up to B or B+ then trade it in until the update comes and buy it again cheaper… It is early, and I may be opted out a bit too soon, but I played a nice amount of fighters in the past, I think I have a decent read on how this thing will play, patched up or not, there’s just fundamental things I don’ like, but I’ll always be here checking top players and seeing what’s going on in the scene even if I trade it in…nice discussion fellas…
Y’know I have to say I was in this camp too. Playing against rolento and hugo does not for fun game make. But then after a few hours I really started to get into it. And actually there was a quote going around that says a game is good based on how good Ryu is, but I actually think its good based on how good Sim is. A good functional Sim means that the archetypes are in place.
As a point by point
I’ve grown to like the roll. It gives the defender an actual option instead of eating additional mixups. I think we can generally agree that burn kick fighter 4 is a bit of a chore to play at times, so now in instead of rewarding combos with additional guesses the person on offense has to make a guess as well. He still gets more pressure if he nails it but nothing guarenteed. This leads to more in depth interaction.
The combo system I really really like. I think most chars cannot convert well. In order to convert safetly in this game you have to do it via a link, correct me if I’m wrong, but almost all chains are unsafe on block even if you only go to the M. The sooner people learn to hold back, the better. Also this point leads into the next point -
The reduction of the throw system. Because in your face pressure is better [huge +frames all around] a throw is more effective since people are much less likely press a button. And of course you can take advange of people who let you wak up to that range with the valle patented CH shot. Into excellent dmg. The whole point of combos doing amazing dmg is that its VERY DIFFICULT now to open someone up. People have to deal with pressure for extended periods of time and actively work to escape their situation instead of FADC ultra or BD[get hit and flip out]. No more brain dead options to escape, no more brain dead options to vortex your oppenent into oblivion.
Chars have good healing because you’re not supposed to let them out. End your combos with a super and there won’t be anything to recover anyway.
The crush thing REALLY surprises me. I’ll just paint a quick scenario. I was going through the whole motion of pressure. Using Ken of course. c.lp.clp c.mp c.mk. If anything hits chain into launcher, if not do a fireball. EZ Mode right? So I get to the c.mk - DECISION TIME; and got hit square in the face with a launcer. amazing. what a beautiful thing. An easy read of course since I was hammering buttons, but what was supposed to be a relatively safe string got totally smashed. It had such a nice tekken vibe to it I have to say., you know you’re just tagging buttons, SS here jab there, safe easy, keeping the game under control. NO. They get a read and its your face going to the wall. SEXY.
I keep forgetting about alpha counters too. That would actually address the guess nature of some of the escapes, although a bait in this game FUCKING HURTS.
Here’s the TL;DR version: This game I think addresses MANY of the issue that SF4 was starting to develop. Weak standing pressure, incredibly strong mixup, overwhelming oki and chars deviating heavily from archetype[I CAN MIXUP ADVANCE AND PRESSURE? YAAYY CIAAaaaa]. Now its a b2bs fighter with a whole slew of new options. How can this be a bad thing?
My friend said it best, I was giving him the whine - ALL PEOPLE DO IS JUMP AND JAB AND WAH WAH WAH WAH, and he said take it to lab. It might surprise you and he’s right. Try and figure a new thing out. Its a whole new page, why are you still reading the prequel?
P.S I will end this with a slight sour note. The time thing is heavy to the pressure thing working out[ok he’s been rocking my guard for awhile, but now I GOTTA make a move, times running thin] But it is admittedly, quite lame. I wish there was a way to make such a methodical fighter less reliant on time. I actually assume, that its gems. can of worms
I agreed on pretty much everything you said, but the bolded is probably why I’m liking the game so much. It really does have a strong Tekken vibe to it - explains why I’m so enamored with it. XD
I’m still working away all my SFIV habits, as I’m playing better people (and friends are rapidly improving). Time outs are starting to be less frequent, but they are still an issue.
But overall, yah, aside from being frustrated at myself for doing idiotic things, SFxT is hitting all the right notes for me.
Thank you, while I do like this game, I think it’s necessary to hear what people do and don’t like about it. Even though most people will just say “it’s such a joke, everything is derp this way and hoip a doip, it sucks even though I’ve presented no examples or ACTUAL reasons except vague statements, but if I lose at a new game it’s obviously cause it’s trash and not just cause I don’t learn fast”
As far as timeouts go, I think the problem is this game plays closest to street fighter (rather than marvel or another system) and yet it has essentially two characters you have to beat in the same time frame. They probably thought it would be fine since Marvel does 3 characters and has the same timer and is fine, yet the thing is, Marvel always has shit happening, there’s always button pressing, and whatnot going on, so it’s easy to finish matches quickly, specially when you add up things like X-factor and what-have-you.
I personally think the clock should be extended by like an extra 20-30 seconds as a tourney standard, I think that would be the perfect amount of time. But myeh.
This is gonna hurt to hear myself say, but yeah - I think gems are supposed to offset the issue. It makes perfect sense for everyone to be playing half the game and have it time out all the time. Basically you can ‘play the game’ and get stronger for it which I think was the intention. Doing jab pressure? put up a gem that says after you land 10 hits your speed goes up to make it even more difficult for them to block. Running a mix up char on anchor? Have them tag in with power plus and make the oppenent sweat. Feel like tiding it out? Block a bit and get even MORE D.
OMG ONO WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG D:
People don’t get the issues with time outs. Damage isn’t the issue, the issue is how long it actually takes to deal that damage. Let’s look at this,
If both players are playing smart and carefully they aren’t going to get hit as quickly. This means it can take close to 20 or so seconds to get past the mid game and get in close.
Even if you get in you may not get any serious damage for another 10 seconds because throws are bad in this game so good blocking is hard to open up.
Let’s say you finally get a hit and get to do damage, your combo can take 5-6 seconds at least for a normal combo. If you choose to super add another 10 seconds for the animation.
The other character wakes up and thanks to the strong wake up game gets out fairly often. If they get away back to the mid game. Even if you keep pressure on it could be even more time before you get another hit.
At some point the other guy tags in his other character, back to square 1.
You see what I am getting at? It takes too long to open people up and this doesn’t even factor when people play lame. If I got a decent lead with 20 seconds left I can run off at least 15 by just backing up against most characters which doesn’t even give enough time to combo.
You really think that 10-20% extra damage is going to make a difference? It won’t because without Gems we already are around half life for a single combo. Not to mention you can also use gems to make the game last longer! The only gem that might help is the speed gem, but even then I don’t think it would make enough of a difference. The problem is with the game engine not the gems.
You know what would stop the TOs? Defense gems! Oh, wait…
I have raised it before, but I will point it out again. Gems are (obviously) used online. Tournament-level players have shown videos where they are using power/speed gems and they are still experiencing as many TOs as everyone else. Gems are very clearly entirely unrelated to this issue. In fact, Gems are only banned at tournaments and most people complaining are playing online, so I cannot understand why this keeps coming up in the first place!
LoyalSol has the core of the issue summed up. Unlike MvC3, it takes a long time to open someone up, and you will not get a ToD on them (which is good, because ToD would suck in this game). TOs are common whenever (a) one player turtles (an increasingly popular strategy), or (b) both players are of fairly even skill. When one player is so far above and beyond the other that they dominate from the first second, TOs are unlikely to be an issue (eg I challenge any tournament-level player to take me on, not turtle and not flog me in under a minute. I guarantee they will!).
Yeah, the lengthy nature of combos as well as the super animations is probably the biggest factor in time running out. In street fighter, really most bnbs or even punish combos are usually within 5 hits, and there’s never two ultras in one (cross assault? or rush? Whatever, the one that uses both character’s super)
Which is why I say just increase the counter like 20-30 seconds.
I still can’t believe they haven’t made it so cinematics don’t stop the clock. I mean we have lost control of the characters so why clock us on it?
Yeah, I’ll be surprised if the clock isn’t one of the first things they tweak.