wtf are you talking about, i was talking about how popular unbalanced games are in the US
On the premise that we’re lazy… but you don’t mention that other countries play unbalanced games. Are they not lazy for the same reasons?
You’re a fucking idiot, and that’s where I’m going to end my participation in this thread. You said you were done. Apparently not.
i didnt compare countries at all. Though we are pretty lazy when comes to fighting games. Though japan is willing to learn almost any fighting game that comes out. People here go nuts any time capcom makes a fighter.
Yeah fuck people for using high tiers when they’re trying to win competitions
Goddamn lazy scrubs, how dare they
yes lets only play games that are made by capcom and anime fighters, yes lets not learn to play VF, Vamp sav, marvel super heroes, yes lets only play unbalanced games. Whats KOF? Yes lets all be narrow minded
Stating that Marvel Super Heroes is balanced heavily implies that you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Not like the way that you’re phrasing your argument does you any favors, though.
Maj says its balanced and that’s good enough for him to post it.
Any way Balance is suggestive.
technically is not subjective, since you (in theory) can measure the balance of a game based on statistics on matchups, tournament results and sometimes in the subjective yet (at least we assume) educated opinion of top players based on their experience
lol, the best players who play msh like spiderdan made a tier chart, and explained why its one of the most balanced fighters ever, the gems help make it even more balanced. You have no idea what your talking about at all. You really should read the MSH thread
Except there is oversights and bugs that can throw it to the unbalance side of things. Sometimes even fixing the bugs and over sights could make the balance worse in said game.
complain about people only playing capcom games… list a bunch of capcom games we should be playing instead.
Balance is a hard thing to accomplish there will always be characters that are better than others, if theres money on the line you would be down right stupid not to pick the character that gives you the most chances of winning or use the most broken tactics available to you, it has nothing to do with being lazy.
and all of this is factored when you measure the balance of a game, if said glitches and bugs are part of the high level play
for example HNK with its dribbling infinite, before the glitch was found the balance of the game was even worse, all the stuff like glitches and oversights made the game more “balanced” compared to how it was at the begining of its life cycle
mvc3 is balanced more balanced than msh
Your first post sounded like it was all up to the game developers for the games balance. When its not true they only know a little and have an idea on how the game should play. Which makes you close minded when it comes to testing the game. Since, a glitch can make you play a character differently.
lmao, what?
in my 1st post i explain to you why balance its not subjective, never mentioned anything about the developers
learn to read
I can’t find this tier chart or thread, would you mind linking it up? Sorry for not delving deep enough into an incarnation of a game that came out while I was in elementary school, and then got replaced in my local arcade by XvSF in short order.
All I remember was those goofy Spider Sting and Wolverine infinites in MSH, and having older kids bully me out of the arcade after said infinites, unless my older brother was there.
Someone in this thread just implied that Capcom is the only one that makes unbalanced games.
Shit makes my head hurt.
MvC isn’t played for balance, it’s played for hype and/or nostalgia. Any balancing issues they fix is icing on the cake.
My two cents.
Ultimately this sort of problem is really the dev’s fault since when communities end up with these kind of borderline situations really no one wins. TvC is actually a good starting case so I’m going to start with that.
My understanding of the TvC giants (correct me if I misunderstand something important here) is that Lightan is actually just terrible and basically a strictly inferior pick to PTX (anything he does well PTX can do too and better), but that PTX is an extreme case of polarizing in an otherwise well balanced game. Everyone has to play run away to win against him (which for some reason some people don’t like; personally I like playing run-away in fighting games), a few characters win basically for free against him, and somewhat more than a few simply can’t beat him. He’s just about the least fun thing ever to use so that does somewhat limit how much he was picked in a fairly immature game, but in the long run, it seems obvious how the metagame would have developed. It’s a 2v2 team game so no characters would probably be made unviable by PTX, but it would simply be a rule that if you want to use any of those characters your other character must be one of the giant hard counters. Since the giants don’t have a team, that would basically mean all those teams would have easy wins against PTX users. Teams that would use giant hard counters anyway also exist, and the only hope the PTX players would have to beat any decent players would be against teams of two characters who can fight the giants okay but don’t win for free, and even then the PTX mains had better have a second team since if you’re about to lose to a PTX user you might as well counterpick Tekkaman Blade or whatever and take a free game and see if he wants to counterpick you in turn with some other team. This ends up with PTX actually being a bottom tier character in a mature metagame but still having a big effect on the metagame since everyone would just be ready to counterpick him appropriately and teams that can be counterpicked by him would simply never be used (everyone would learn PTX just well enough to take free wins against those teams). The game was clearly too immature to reach that point, but as an outsider it seemed really obvious to me it was heading in that direction. Banning PTX is bad practice since he’s obviously not broken or anywhere close, but it’s also clear that he’s strictly bad for the game since in a mature metagame he’s not even played but does really reduce what is actually played. This is basically a no win for the community no matter what they do, and while a ban was clearly premature (PTX hadn’t really played out yet, given that PTX players were still winning in tournaments), this is a problem that is going to really hurt any competitive community simply to have to deal with. It’s on Capcom to fix it really, and the game’s death (largely for unrelated reasons) is probably a good thing if for nothing else but removing this issue from being a real problem.
The Smash talk kinda demonstrates how far it can go and how it’s just a big burden on communities. Bad talking about smash aside, seriously, both Melee and Brawl are great competitive games, and in particular I’m really a huge fan of Brawl. There are three issues here, two of which were really damaging to the community. I’m going to put this in spoiler tags since this got kinda long and I know a lot of people here have this bizarre disdain of smash. The short version is that making rules when the game leaves you with difficult choices sucks.
[details=Spoiler]The non-issue is items which are a pretty simple issue. The game is degenerate and bad and not even fun with the default setting (all items on, medium spawn rate) so we have to pick some non-default setting. At this point it’s completely arbitrary what item settings you do use, and it’s pretty clear in a lot of ways that the best game is “off” and “none” so we use that. The characters aren’t even really designed around items which is more obvious if you’ve played the game a lot, but this issue seems to confuse some people not familiar at all with smash even though like 99.9% of the community is completely unanimous on this being the right call. I could actually explain at very great length why this is completely correct, but for the sake of things, just take it on faith. The other two issues are stages and Meta Knight, and both are really big problems.
Stages is basically a matter of vision for the game, and it’s tough. The game offers no stage selection method other than random that would be suitable for any sort of competitive mindset, and random leaves a lot to be desired. Some stages are clearly completely broken (infinite run-away is possible on a fair number, among a few other completely degenerate things on the worse stages). A handful of stages are pretty polarized but not really broken (like Skyworld has some pretty large character advantage but is never truly unfair). Probably a little more than half of the stages are overall truly fair, but there’s a lot of gameplay diversity between them and various stages really have different character balance. Like on Final Destination Ice Climbers are a top character, but on Brinstar they’re a bottom tier character. Within the community you ended up with two different visions which we ended up calling, ironically for a community in constant internal dispute, liberal and conservative. I was a bastion of liberalism; our vision was a game in which as many stages were legal as possible and the rules were designed to see play on as great of a diversity of stages as possible. The conservative vision was one in which the whole problem of stages was an irksome diversion from playing the game and that they wanted to boil the game down into only a fairly narrow range of some of the less interactive and also more similar to each other stages which minimized the advantages of counterpicking, reduced gimmickry, and made character value a bit more static. Ultimately the conservative vision won out, and as a player who had put a lot of personal focus into the stages that were suddenly no longer a part of the mainstream game (being good on more unusual stages was my big speciality as a player, and my only character Mr. Game & Watch gets a lot worse without these stages), I really basically lost all reason to play. I understand though since the problem is basically a no win. My sort of vision for the game would make a huge part of the game’s strategy involve complex pre-match stage selection mechanics completely created by players in order to include as much as possible, and I can see how that’s not ideal and how from a neutral starting point it’s not obvious how to proceed. You basically have to make up some grand scheme since unlike with items you do have to include some stages, and making wrong decisions will end up with a lot of really lopsided things causing all sorts of problems basically forcing a competitive community to do game design. It ends badly.
Meta Knight is the last issue, and he’s a perfect case of why modern fighting games NEED patches from developers to address serious balance issues and how bad it was for Brawl not to have that. Meta Knight is not ST Akuma, is not broken, and by any standard ever suggested by anyone credible on SRK should not be banned. He is, however, a huge problem for the game. First of all, for a majority of players, he’s the easiest character to use. Second of all, he is never truly at a disadvantage. His worst match-ups are even, and most of his match-ups are advantaged with many being greatly advantaged. As per which those are, the ugly thing here is that it depends a lot on stage. On the more static stages, a somewhat small set of characters are pretty close to even with him (Diddy Kong in particular does best, being pretty much dead even). On the less static stages, there’s a greater array of characters that can compete with him well but fewer that are actually even (a lot more 4-6 and such), but the big problem is that the characters who went even with him on the static stages tend to have huge disadvantages to him on the dynamic ones. In a world where we end up with dealing with stage counterpicking regardless (even the conservatives include far more than one stage, which would be bad anyway since actually doing something like FD only could make someone like ICs really, really stupid), this is just frustrating since you can deal with a roller coaster with any given character or just pick MK and not worry about it. If you like winning, picking the easiest character who is never at a disadvantage, frequently at a very large advantage, and doesn’t have to worry about any of the other stuff that makes picking stuff in the game complicated is just such a common sense thing to do, and the result is that over time everyone feels pressured to use MK (how abusable some of his best stuff is makes it really disheartening to lose to as well; Mach Tornado is like aHVB levels good in a game where almost everything other than raw mobility is really tame). This was a huge battle in the community for literally three years non-stop. I never really favored a ban since honestly under reasonable rules MK is clearly the best choice but also clearly beatable, but a lot of players just got really tired of dealing with him. The fact that Brawl is honestly a very well balanced game outside of MK (and Ganondorf who is a completely laughable bottom tier) makes it rather frustrating as well since it’s not just complaining about whoever happens to be best so much as a case of having a best character who may be a “normal” character but is also basically outside of the game’s balance curve. Nothing the community could do was going to be a good decision, and fighting over the issue proved incredibly destructive to the community.[/details]
It seems pretty clear to me that a lot of older fighting games were lucky in avoiding the particularly worst cases of balance problems (things like 3S Yun/Chun or ST O.Sagat are honestly tame, and things like ST Akuma are just easy choices so they’re also not problems), and in newer fighting games, it has become increasingly important to depend on the developers to provide a game wherein the community doesn’t have to deal with this stuff. Like, I really do love the smash community, but it’s clear to me that being burdened with creating rules for the game is destructive to the scene, and the extreme amount of discord that the TvC case stirs up for a game that no one plays is a pretty good sign that SRK is no different. It’s just not something these kinds of communities can handle, and the game devs have to either design the game in the first place not to have these issues or provide patch support to remove them as they come up. The “just don’t ban” philosophy is clearly best for games that can actually support it, and luckily for most people around here Capcom is pretty good about that especially these days (I don’t think they would let something like TvC giants run amok in any of their higher profile fighters). As per playing games that aren’t going to get that kind of support, I think what the smash community does is probably the best possible but still pretty undesirable. You have to form an elite to make rules, try to mandate a unity ruleset, and try to make it to appeal to the majority (you won’t be able to achieve unity without that). A lot of people will get left out and hurt as players by whatever rules you do make (like I did honestly!), but that’s just the sacrifice that you have to make. Thinking in these terms, I don’t think the question of what should be allowed is really a tough one.
What I’m getting from this is a sense that counterpicking is bad… which it isn’t. In fact, counterpicking is an indicator of a game that has what Ponder would call “meta-balance” (meaning, while not everyone is balanced, everyone does have counters).
Fuck no!
That’s the worst thing that can happen to the community and is one fo the reasons why Smashboards and the Smash community is looked down upon by SRK.
The FGC has always prided itself in the lack of any form of arbitrary segregation and this goes against that principle