I understand your point on activation frames, but that wasn’t really what I was getting at. A good example of what I mean was the CvS2 finals between Buktooth and Steve H. at Final Round '08. As the match progressed, you saw Steve more frequently missing his parry opportunities as buk was mixing up his poke timing. Since the window to parry is smaller, this strategy becomes more effective.
Even throwing that out for a second, in CvS2, if you want parry you still have to accept that your meter builds really slow, and you have no access to roll. That trade off, to me at least, makes things a lot more interesting.
As for the parrying full screen supers, of course it isn’t a good idea! But when you’re playing against someone that also is doing lots of things that are bad ideas–namely randomly throwing full screen supers that have no hope of hitting–you have some room to be retarded back. My point is, I don’t practice this stuff. I really shouldn’t be able to nullify a super like that when I don’t even practice the game.
Yes, I also realize that I could have just jumped over the bloody thing, but I had a noob to impress. That’s important.
That trade off basically made P groove pretty much the least used groove in the last 4 years of CVS2 but yeah. :lol: Parry is a ridiculously strong tool just by itself sure but it got to a point in CVS2 where P groove just wasn’t really worth using. Not even just talking about the US. Even the Japanese vids that I watch N groove is getting more rep than P groove. Mainly because N groove pound for pound is a better groove that allows for more character diversity. I really respect Steve H for doing what he does with P groove but the groove is overly reliant on doing things without meter. In a game where meter hella matters P groove at its best is basically P Cammy at the end trying her best to be 3S Chun in CVS2. Especially without the ability to guard break stuff like shosho that chips your health down to nothing even if you’re perfectly blocking it. Though Steve trained himself to do stuff like buffer parry on reaction into DP with Cammy to stop A groove shosho which is pretty hardcore considering how that could easily go wrong.
They could have easily made P groove even a little bit better by changing the meter management to something more of a C groove style system though maybe omit special move cancelling and make it so alpha counter takes away nearly all of your guard meter. Something so it at least has more of a chance against A groove shenanigans and K groove rush mix ups into free damage.
P groove is an interesting take on what parry would be like in 3S if it wasn’t so strong but I find P groove ultimately disinteresting because if you’re not parrying there really isn’t much else to do in that groove. The lack of meter management in that groove outside of 1 huge level 3 that you can store really limits the characters and strategies you can use in that groove. Your first character pretty much has to be a character that can do damage without meter (P Kyo) or is nearly as gay as P groove Cammy (maybe a few other characters). I like using P groove because I like to parry but I don’t like the groove at all. The lack of things you can do with the meter just makes me realize I should just be using K groove instead.
I’m going to suggest a different perspective on parrying and what may be causing the divergence:
In 3s, it more feels like I’m playing against a person and not what character that person has selected.
I mostly play Alex in 3s and a friend of mine that I’ve played hundreds (if not in the thousands) of matches against played Yun. He would win most of the time starting out, but after time, we started to get a feel for each other’s playstyles and I would start reading him. I would pick up on how he almost always would do a second dive kick after doing a full-screen super-jump->RH dive kick or how he hovered over me during knockdown would show if he was going to meaty or dive kick or throw etc. I was able to start beating him because I would pick up on his “ticks” and parry-punish/block-punish them. It got to a point where I was not scared at all of him activating genei-jin and could even knock him down with a well-timed stomp giving me time to get away to avoid the rest of the genei-jin rather than just blocking through the whole thing.
I think that’s kind of the essence of why I enjoy 3s more than any other SF game. In ST, using the previous Claw vs shoto example, the situation is set and there’s only so many options to get out of it. Ideally, both players know what those options are (usually just a well-timed srk if I’m not mistaken), and it doesn’t really matter who each player is. You’re not playing against them so much as the character they have chosen to use.
It’s kind of like Starcraft in a sense (another favorite game of mine). Pros watch replays of each other to pick up on habits that each other have. As a probably untrue example, say when Jaedong harasses with his mutalisks, does he move them in a clock-wise motion or a counter-clockwise motion? Which way does he habitually move to retreat from a hit and run? Knowing these things helps other players get an edge on playing against him because they know what he’s prone to do that he may not even be aware of. This kind of knowledge of who your opponent is and how they play doesn’t seem to matter as much in games like SF4 and ST due to hard set rock-paper-scissors style of design. Whereas in games like 3s and Starcraft, the design is much softer and there’s typically always another way out if you got the moves and can out-psych your opponent. I think that parrying is what makes the game a “softer” design rather than a rigid one.
Yeah that’s part of the reason why I like 3S as well. The mind games generally happen quicker and it’s not so much of a chess board fight. It’s more free and open to interpretation and high level play is more won through feel than chess pieces. Not that 3rd Strike is entirely reliant on guessing and if nothing fell into place in 3S then no one would win consistently either. The game just has a flow to it that I really like and ultimately there’s nothing wrong with just liking a game.
In SFIV not only do you have to deal with the chess board style play of SF2 but then it is accented by how block strings that don’t involve mashing jab can be dp’d, the only meaties are jump ins, hit boxes that are borderline glitchy and shoryus that have reversal windows and shortcuts that allow your grandma to do them without issue. So you just feel so much more restrictive in a game that’s already supposed to be more rigid than 3S to begin with. I just don’t feel free to apply offense like in other SF games so I tend to play SFIV just because it’s SF but not because I thoroughly enjoy anything going on in it. It’s a lot of stopping your offense to respect your opponent and I don’t like that.
ST and CVS2 are great games though and although 3S will always be my number 1 game I can definitely see why people like and still like those games today. They promote offense way better than SFIV does (well ST comes in first and CVS2 a distant second) and ultimately that’s what I’m looking for. A game where things are happening quickly and there’s real reason to press your advantage in a lot of different situations.
As I explained to specs, that isn’t true because the input of the parry is tapping forward from a neutral position while an attack is right on the verge of hitting you. If you do this when no attack is coming, you just walk forward. Thus, if you’re inputting a parry and not just inching forward, you’re definitely going to get hit if you miss it. Similarly, if you’re going to attempt a red parry, it’s even worse because you’re specifically making a “stop blocking and walk into this attack” input. Mistime it and you’re going to eat the attack.
I loved playing ST as well and was very excited for SF4 because I was expecting something very similar. Unfortunately for me, my favorite characters (claw and sim) suffered extreme changes in play. I am still having a very difficult time playing SF4 because of these changes… in the first 2 weeks, “What the fuck?!” was the most common phrase that came out of my mouth (I’d say 70% of everything I said while playing SF4). I about lost it when fully half of the times I tried to wall dive with claw in the first match I played with him, he couldn’t even get to the wall. The first thing I did in practice mode with 'sim was set up his drill->throw rushdown mixup and after seeing the drill just went back to character select and put him on the proverbial shelf indefinitely. I want to like 4 so much. I want to get on the bandwagon and play a game with a large following. It’s just not fun :sad:
3s and even ST has a “make it, take it” style of play. You get the advantage, it’s up to your opponent to come back. SF4 is an “ok, now give them a chance” sort of play where, as you said, you have to respect your opponent.
To put it all into perspective, I think this question is hard to awnser mainly because the dissenting views on parrying are a mix of complaints that are hard to isolate as the “1 main point agaisnt parrying” . As a example, some people don’t hate parrying as a mechanic but have issues agaisnt it’s implmentation. Others might be the type that enjoy a emphasis on zoning and spacing which parrying diminishes and some might just not like the gameplay related implications parrying has. Although to Bottomline it is quite simple, its all subjective and opinion based with no absolute right or wrong.
The Strike Family (3s players) are not hating on 4 because of the lack of parries. It’s the things that DJ mentioned. I play the game and will continue to play the 4 series because it’s SF. Arguing as to why 3s is better or vice versa is pointless. Alot of the new players will stick with 4 because they finally got a SF game where they can now actually do a DP…and some of you are calling it a man’s game???
Even though 3s is my favorite i love ST and the alpha series so i dont hate on traditional SF chess style play,but cmon now. My mom can do a raging demon, she’s 55, a pastor and owns a shoe boutique in brooklyn and she can mash out DP’s and raging demons like nobody’s business. real talk
i got the video on my phone and i should youtube it one of these days
It’s not the new players who are hurting SF, it’s not the old players who are hurting SF, it’s this attitude that is hurting SF.
No disrespect intended Hold Dat but why should you play SF4 just because it’s SF. If you have more love for ST/3S/CVs2/whatever, don’t be part of the reason those games are being phased out. I’m not aiming this specifically at you Hold Dat because I have no idea what you play and what tourneys you enter but it annoys me when people praise game X over game Y but still only enter events for game Y because game X is “old” and doesn’t pull the same kind of numbers anymore (what o what could be the cause of that now).
No disrespect taken sir. Dont get me wrong i dont think SF4 is a bad game, i enjoy playing it. I just dont think this new direction is good for future releases. best believe i was at CF everyday when 4 dropped and i went to almost every major just to play 4 and 3s. To keep the sf4 generation happy with any other future releases i dont think (and i could be retarded for thinking this) ill ever get a really in depth SF game the likes of cvs2 or 3s. But like i stated before i dont knock people who dont like 3s because a persons preference is their own. But IMHO this game doesnt feel like it was made for the hardcore SF players or the “pros” so to speak.
for me to expect capcom to make a game just to my liking is rediculous (i know) but im personally salty after this long wait that the new product wont give me the same benefits i got from 3s and cvs2. honestly, i know what i want is unreallistic but it is what it is
Thats the brutal reality of tournament play, considering how much time and commitment it takes to learn/master/compete at such a high level of play, these guys have to go where the money is at, I mean, if they have to travel all over the place, pay for hotels, spend a preposterus amount of time mastering said games, I cannot blame them for going to the high density tourneys. Realistically, 3 games are most likely all any one person could try and compete at, at once, and thats even pushing it. (the time invested in so many games would be tough to manage at that level)
I have personally never heard any top or casual 3s player that i know say they dont like 4 because of the lack of parries. The complaints or gripes about 4 are the things Deviljin listed. no 3s player worth his his salt will write off the 4 series just because of the lack of parries. thats a big misconception. 3s is my favorite but i play ST and alpha and especially the EX series heavily. I dont need parries to have fun playing any Sf game
As for “B” c’mon now…
Im not saying thats the only reason but it plays a big part. and of course that does not apply to all the new players but alot of them.
i hate sf4 because even high level players mash. It is just a great option in the system. Otherwise it is alright.
like i’ve said before Everyone hating on 3s wants to fireball trap till 2020
I learned from 3s and Parry that the secret to being good on any fighting game is to make everything with a reason.
Like Nuki said once
"Don’t do something cause you think its good if hits. Do something cause you think it will hit"
Even if you dont always guess right, as long as you do everything with a reason, you will see vast improvement in your gameplay.
I would have never been able to learn that in a game like SF4
there’s PLENTY of space to do shit without any reason at all, so its really hard for a new player to realize this.
Parry is a system that brings the best out a player, SF2 and SF4 can give you the nerves of steel skill, but 3s can give you the whole thing.
