Which fightstick part / suits my style?

Tech Talk
1

I finally got my joystick working, and it seems to chaotic.

previous joystick experience

I had a great joy stick in the 90s, where despite poor contours on the buttons, and shoddy wiring inside, I was the best fighter in our group in the 90s when I had my old right-stick.

Then in the 00s, I fell in love with a sanwa joystick in the Street Fighter 4 tournament edition. I was pulling off soul throws with Rose, a character I haven’t played much.

Unfortunately for Street Fighter 4, the joystick maneuvers has a lot of makeup on it, by the time I tried it on Street Fighter 30th using a Street Fighter II mode, the make off sweat it up and I got a loose mess.

Joystick I had in the 90s was the standard stick part used by KY Enterprises.

This would be the perfect personality match up with my joystick: The one thing I hate is false diagonals. Too many times in other games besides Street Fighter, but also SF2, I accidentally pressed the diagonal when I did not intend to.

Diagnostic Gaiden

Then I noticed three things could be causing it, so I solve them in the order from the easiest to correct to hardest.

The first one was at the table was wobbling with me with my joystick. So I stepped up to what I thought was a sturdy or table introduced it somewhat. Then I remember back in the 90s, I was playing, sitting on the floor “Indian style” as I was taught in Kindergarten, ( thought that term wouldn’t be used today) with my joystick on the floor, regardless of the floor being a wood floor, a cement floor, or carpet floor.

My game improved. I have less false diagonals that on a shaky table.

I also bought myself a VGA CRT monitor because I know that most digital TVs have long drawing times where is a VGA CRT monitor is instant. Let’s just say I did not get hit because I mis-blocked, it was because I was willing to go for an attack and he caught me in the middle. I think we safely established that the ping time on the HDMI to VGA converter is less than 1 millisecond. And for pretty much everything except light gun games and Sega scope 3D games, one millisecond is good enough.

Still, when going for Dragon punches I could not hit it. and yes I understand executing dragon punches in Street Fighter 2 is tougher than 4. That’s exactly the reason I fell for the wrong stick. Basically Street Fighter 4 gives joysticks a little plastic surgery.

Also I thought it might be my poor internet, which I’m hoping the partial escape from. When I played offline, there were a couple times I pull up dragon punches but nowhere near the 95+ percent I did on Street Fighter II that one streak back in the 90s before poor soldering ruined it. I would have had my right-handed joystick. But it does young.

I’d say as I said the number one thing I love to do is avoid false diagonals. I noticed on that little stick I’d be sliding from up and I’m going up left arm going left and then a little bit up makes me jump. That’s called the throw, and based on my descriptions, I like a long throw better than I like short throw.

another thing I know I want is a combo square gate diamond gate. if I had an Octo Gate or circle gate I would accidentally scrape the diagonal when going from east to South then Southeast. The reason I want square is for avoiding false diagonals, and diamond is for certain four-way games, where diagonals do funky things, especially on an Atari 5200.

if anyone knows what kind of joystick KY Enterprises used, let me know that was the perfect joystick feel wise.

Are those springs in a Sanwa extra strong? I feel like I’m fighting centering resistance. I don’t want 5200 looseness except on my 5200 sticks for analog games where that comes in handy. But using a joystick felt like using an Xbox One thumbpad on Warlords.

Also the Sanwa bat is WAY too small for my tastes. the Sanwa’s bat thickness seems correct but the height is way too low, and even if raised it seems too short.

Without making 10 year old bad boy toilet/snuggle humor, what stick would be best for me based on what I described?

2

Does this look like the joystick you are talking about?
https://focusattack.com/industrias-lorenzo-8-way-eurojoystick-white/

3

That looks like the right height and length, but looks like it’s too thick at the top.

Also clicking on the link to focus attack, it describes itself as a short throw joystick.

Based in what I think, (and if I’m wrong, or going off a false assumption, let me know.) A higher height is longer distance from the pivot point. And with longer levers you need less force to move it, but must move it a longer distance. I tend to move the joystick in “violent stick shift mannner.”

The one thing I want to do is avoid false diagonals. I’m short joysticks there’s very little margin for error for actuated an unintended diagonal. I noticed where the joypad on the Sega Genesis I was actually eating too many unintentional diagonals. and that short little sanwa also gives me too many unintentional diagonals.

Also if you will a cardinal direction if there’s not enough room for error you may accidentally diagonal. When you add extra room to confirm your cardinal, the more likely you are to remain accurately at a cardinal.

also it’s better to use that Force you put on the joystick to physically move the joystick then it is to fight centering resistance of an over springy joystick.

I’d be willing to give up a few milliframes of speed to gain more control.

I bought this joystick in around the time of Street Fighter 2 the new Challengers for the Sega Genesis.

Was Wico still around then? I heard those are typical American joysticks. The Beeshu joysticks were also excellent in avoiding false diagonals (in addition to ambidextrous layouts)

So we got four regions of joysticks: Japanese, Korean, European, and American. What are the differences between those, and are the differences that easily drawn along geographic lines?

Finally not sure whether to bring this up as a another topic or to stay here:. I noticed I had more control when I was Indian style on the floor. Therefore it’s important for me is playing on a table. Not have the table be wobbly at all.

Where can one find a table that’s very stable when assembled it doesn’t shake every time you move the joystick fast for one person. Would it just be cheaper per person to buy a two-person table?

4

Not necessarily, the throw has less to do with the lever length above the panel, but more so the length the actuator moves under the panel. I know it sounds counterintuitive but the height of the lever means nothing, its how much you actually have to move. The Sanwa JLF is a mid range for throw. Yes its not as tight as it can be, but it’s also can be very forgiving with bad execution.
Sometimes all people do to make the JLF feel better is put in a larger actuator and a stiffer spring.

There the Seimitsu LS-56, 58, 60 they are all short throw, and they can be modded to be even shorter with aftermarket gates. The problem is you are now too accurate, your execution, your movements has to be on point. Excellent for Shoot em ups, but they can make fighters difficult if you aren’t on perfect.

Honestly I am not sure what to tell you other than try a bunch of things out, but that cost money.

But here the joystick models I am thinking might be up your ally (in no particular order)

The Seimitsu LS-32 and LS 38, alot of people who don’t like the Sanwa JLF goes with the LS-32 as its a good all around joystick. The only “Flaw” is if you hit any direction too hard you feel a pop or click as the actuator “jumps” the gate. If you like to play hard and fast and don’t like the poping feeling, this stick not for you.

There the Seimitsu LS-40 and the Sanwa JLW, there actually very different joysticks with very different designs but they feel very similar and some of the parts are even interchangeable.

The Sanwa JLW is a Japanese Joystick that design to be a drop in replacement for American/European style joysticks. It comes in two versions a 6mm thread that takes normal joystick tops and a 10mm thread that takes Sanwa Bat tops without the adapter and special 10mm threaded ball tops. Despite it’s much stronger spring and heavier lever it not hard to move around, and can support very heavy balltops.

The LS-40 is what was Seimtisu’s answer to fix the flaws in the LS-32. It comes with a shaft cover pre installed and required for function unlike the JLF, and it has only a 6mm thread.

Last one is not a single stick but a large selection of sticks
Korean Joysticks, most of these instead of using springs use a rubber grommet like the old Wico.
They have a old school feel, they are prefered by Tekken players as you can return back from any direction to neutral quickly, and you can even change the strength of the joystick by putting in a harder or softer grommet. Korean Joysticks are almost always Bat tops models with the top permanently attached to the shaft. But there models of Korean joystick that has a ball top or a removable top.
Or you can buy a aftermarket shaft that comes with a 6mm thread for the tops of your choice.

Last is one I havent tried but it an option, its the OTTO DIY JLF. It can be used on a existing Sanwa JLF or Hori Hayabusa Joystick, you take apart and rebuild your joystick with this mod kit to make the JLF feel more like a Korean Joystick.

5

The main part I’m looking for is I do not want to accidentally throw diagonal when I mean to throw a cardinal.

More times I say dang I didn’t press the right thing versus I didn’t react in time. yes I understand there’s over the panel throw and under the panel throw and the acts like a fulcrum. if you want the maximum control you should have longer "throw above the panel"and shorter "throw below the panel, correct.

Of course I sacrifice a few milliseconds of action by actually taking longer to maneuver. but as I said way too many times I’ve had "wrong button/direction problems in first person shooters and diagonal instead of cardinal problems (in more than just fight games. I’ve had problems performing the forever back and forth glitch on the Genesis version of Golden Axe with a pad. I usually drift upwards gradually until I miss.)more often than being too late.

I trained my hands to be fast because they’re very little analog games that required precision in movement. it’s a lot easier to have precision in movement if you have digital controls than with analog. That’s why I was never good at most of these racing games because mentally I can’t consciously feel subtlety in steering. I mean I can well enough in the real world where you’re not going to hundred miles an hour, because I have a driver’s license. In the gaming world I’m more of a tap-tap steer guy, used to digital sticks.

It’s a balance between control and speed. If you want to be to your opponent to the punch you have your joystick setup one way, if you want maximum control you want the joystick the other way.

I can explain why above the panel throw is good. let’s say you have a centimeter of random left missing rightness in which you think is a perfectly straight throw regardless of length. The longer the length, the more acute the angle assuming the same centimeter widthh of shakiness, Adam or acute angles less likely to accidentally actually diagonals.if you want a diagonal just will a diagonal you will probably not accidentally hit a cardinal if you will a diagonal with as much movement as you try to will a cardinal.

I devised something that would be a straightness test and make a fun Mini-Game in Konami’s track and field. Alternate wiggling an analog stick North and South. Each footstep makes contact with the ground every time you’re reach the outer circle (x^2 + y^2 = 1 ) both above the x-axis and below, what the distance you travel depends on how many absolute Y axis you need to travel so therefore the more off you are when you hit the outer rim the less y-axis you get. So you have to flick really straight and really fast win.

6

I am still thinking you might be the LS-40/JLW or Korean Stick type of player.

You are overthinking it. Yeah there whole bunch of statistics and math that you could involve, but thats meaningless if you don’t like that feel.

7

I know I’m kind of overthinking it, but when you don’t have big bucks to spend, like I don’t being on Social Security disability with a minimum wage job, you can’t just willy-nilly try joysticks until you find the one you want…

Unless there is a local joystick shop they’ll let you test the joysticks with whatever game you want, so you could see for yourself what type of player you are.

I know I’m fast. Assuming there’s no delay for when you hit the buzzer in when the board stops, I could have a Michael Larson-like day any time on Press Your Luck (big difference is he got paid) .

The only question would be mental focus endurance. That’s what Pepsi Max is for.

I am naturally klutzy. It seems I react quickly in non video game situations, but often do the rlwrong thing. For exqmple,when I heard an unexpected F word *American, not Canadian), I was fumbling trying to find a way to stop it. I also get the “wrong button/direction blues” on first person shooters. In those, I prefer “wiimote” controls.

Caffeine would give one jitters. Too many jitters cause accidental diagonals. making the “above the table” throw longer makes Cardinals and diagonals more accurately conform to my will, by making my natural jitter an insignificant distance compared to the intended “above the table” throw distance. And if the control doesn’t conform to your mind. It might as well he a roulette wheel. Without that stick, I almost always spot the opportunity in time, I just misfire way too many times. Like below 10 percent on “strict” z motion games, and when it does work, it’s usually telegraphed.

If anyone remembers KY Enterprises, (the handicap game company before Able Gamers. Remember this was SF2 days, where the people got custom was for performance reasons and not just tourney Bling. Apparently right handed stick play is considered a handicap by most of the FGC.) what kind of fight stick did they use in the 90s?

I know what game to test it with: a real Sega Genesis SF2NC on a real CRT TV. That game is unforgiving joystick-wise. If I can pull off over 90 percent of intended dragon punches, I’d be happy.

Any try before you buy joystick places within 100 miles of Cleveland, Oh?

8

That I can’t help you even if I try, I am no where near Ohio nor have I ever been to the state.

9

Stan originally recommended an optical stick that can hook up to be PC and you could program the sensitivity. The 2 problems were I don’t know how to hook it up to a PC to program the sensitivity zones, and be if those sticks are programmable on software ran by a Macintosh or an Android.

It’s all good show me a Mac or Android program for these optical sticks did I can program whatever sensitivity I want, and even change my sensitivity based on game situation.

I can even make a virtual 4-way joystick by declaring the whole neutral line and anything close enough to be neutral. The only reason I didn’t like it was because I didn’t have the software I didn’t want to be reliant on sending my stick every time I wanted it programmed,

I’ll ask Stan if he recommends a good optical joystick with a good bat handle.

10

So guys, would an optical stick help? Is there an Android 9 or lower program or a Mac OS 10.13 or lower program that can adjust it?

Based on above described usage and strengths and weaknesses, if I value control over quickness, the obvious diagonal should be big enough to do a Virtua Fighter Jacky/Sarah Flash Kick (DF + K)

I assume I can have multiple “modes” so a 4 way mode where 141% length diagonals on Atari 5200 controls cause run time logic errors, a SF mode (circles and Zs) an MK mode (double taps) and a VF mode, (able to find a diagonal from neutral without a cardinal). And other handy joystick modes? a schmup mode (highly quick-reaction moves)

Also can certain squares have SACD Scrubbers (is an exact diagonal about stasis or dynamism?). If so a Maze mode, (Pac Man, Lady Bug, Mouse Trap, etc…) might be added too. And since I have my phone with me, onboard memory needn’t be high.

I do like the square gate with a longer, more intentional. diagonal throws.

Is it true, that if one is a deer in the headlights, as opposed to a dog following his/her master ignoring that threat in the periphery, then a square gate, long “above the panel” throw stick is good? Also is the tactile/audible difference between a cardinal and diagonal present in an optical?

I like that Braille-like tactile obviousness that I hit a sensor. That’s why I violently stick shift. Circular and octagonal gates don’t have that tactile obviousness.

11

Forget optical, they are expensive, difficult to set up, and will not work on every console without. DC to DC converter as the Optical Joystick always needs 5 volts.

12

Now that I think about it, optical does not have the tactile/audible feel which could help keep your eyes off the map (stick) and eyes on the road (screen) when in motion (playing).

So do my theories make sense 2 enough people that there could be a justification for certain types of people to like long throws and tactile confirmation of cardinal vs diagonal inputs?

I remember having an optical joystick and one of the problems was the Virtua Fighter Jackie / Sarah flash kick. (Down-Forward plus Kick). the diagonal area was so short that when I was intending to hit diagonal I felt around wall I didn’t know if I was hitting diagonal or not.

that’s a reason why I like Square Gates is because a diagonal feels different than a cardinal. It’s the difference between having your back to the straight wall and having your back to the corner.

On the literal battlefield, the first gives you protection, the second gives you lack of mobility.

Same tactilely.

I know I want long throw above the board.
What would be better below the board?

As I said, I understand there’s trade-offs and I’m willing to trade off a little speed to gain lots of control. Usually the deer in the headlights sensation is harder to “mentally shake off” vs the intraverted, slapped upside the head, pay attention fool mistake.

13

Keep in mind American/European and Korean style parts are effectively circle gates parts in spite not having a gate.
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DeMIzsIwSkjs&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiCx4yA8LPqAhVDneAKHdISCIoQtwIwAHoECAEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1iE5KiEW1XNOhRyrH8h8vB

1 Like
14

After watching the video I could think I can more accurately explain my tendencies.

I guess if you want to joystick for every game I’m going to have to learn how to change Gates.

if there is no gate you said naturally it’s a circle (American) or square (Japanese).

I would love long throw below the panel as well as above.

I want to avoid “false diagonals” in Golden Axe.

I want to hit JUST the diagonal for Jacky/Sarah flash kick.

I think the best of most worlds is a “rounded square gate” with very long throw (about an 90-100 percent throw actuation ratio.)

I like to play by feel. If you don’t keep your eyes on the map, you can keep them on the road. The rounded corners are so I can ride the gate for fireballs and 360s, yet be aware I hit it in a Jacky/Sarah case. The large neutral is so I can feel the timing and confirm success/failure of hitting a direction.

The main things I need are avoiding unintended diagonals, and accurate tactile reporting.

Is there such a thing as a rounded square + diamond/cloverleaf (for 4-way games) adjustable gate/ 2 separate gates that are easy for me to change?

The video showed me. The problem is that Japanese joysticks are short throw. I prefer long throw. (Assuming I understand what throw is correctly)

15

There is this, the Ultimarc’s ServoStik

Motor-driven restrictor plate switches between 4 and 8 way in less than a second
USB Servo Control board drives two joystick servos.
Can also be switched in a standalone setup (no PC) using two buttons or a toggle switch
Multiple control boards can be used on one PC for 4 or more players
Optional RGB Illuminated handle available.

760×570 154 KB

760×560 216 KB

It’s a modification of Ultimarc’s J-stick which is a clone of the Sanwa JLW.
It mount anywhere a Standard Sanwa Japanese Joystick would. Can fit in wood paneling like a Happ or IL stick would. I would skip the USB functions and wire it up to a toggle switch for Standalone functionality. 8 way would function like any stick would for your fighters and such, go into 4 way mode for old arcade titles like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong.

16

Well I do have an easy to switch gate, and outside a very few specific things with very specific instructions I am a shop klutz, therefore I say it’s easy chances are quite a few people think it’s easy, in other words a very low bar to clear.

I know I could unscrew the four screws rotate Andre screw back to alternate between 4 way and 8 way. The only question is is there a way to get “rounded squares” for the square gate.

by the way I figured out most of the drama was because I was playing on one of those sterilite plastic dressers and if you’re stick shifting to joystick it’s sitting on the top shelf those things are not very stable and will cause wobble which will cause a lot of vibration which will cause a lot of false actuations. probably my table situation should be cleared up first before I start micro tinkering with the joystick.

By the way I’m a stick shifter but most stick shifters prefer short throws to gain speed. I am a stick shifter but prefer long throws to prevent false actuations.

If I’m correct that a larger neutral zone is the very definition of long throw below the stick? And am I right the advantage you gain with long throw is control and tactile communication but the disadvantage would be it takes more time to switch directions? And I understand for everyone for every pay out there is a price, and based on individual body and mind difference, there is not “one right stick”. But there may be “one ideal stick FOR YOU”. But most people can deal well enough with their sticks.

17

This makes it possible with a switch or button press and you not have to open up the stick.

Most Square gate sticks have rounded corners.

More I read about your preferences, more I think you are either a LS-40/ JLW player or a Korean Stick player. The gap between the two is not much, if anything there a overlap.

If I ever come across spare parts, I might just send them your way to see how you like the feel.