Hating on Viper is not appropriate. Cammy and Akuma however… hmmm
Cammy by far. Freaking overpowerd turtle character. I dond get why people choose Seth and viper. Viper takes alot of gambles that can be punished. You just need to know how to play against her. Seth sure does have alot of options at his disposel but a few mistakes and he is done for. But in the end it all depends on the players skill. Cammy however is just cheapass so anyone can play her turtle style. I thought Sagat first was the cheapest but i take that back lol.
c.MK is certainly one of the best footsie tools in the game. However that doesn’t make Ryu a great footsie character on its own. When it comes to footsies Ryu is solid (as I said) but he isn’t Vega, Gen, Balrog, Blanka, Bison or Chun who all are much better at footsies but don’t have access to the OTHER tools Ryu brings. Those are characters that are pretty much strictly better at footsies, now there are a number of characters that could be argued to be as good at footsies as Ryu. So above average but not the best of the best.
You said there are four characters with better fireballs than Ryu. There are 17 characters with fireballs (if you count Ibuki’s Kunai). That means that 24% of the cast that have fireballs have better fireballs than Ryu, I’d say that is above average but not the best.
Ryu’s sweep is indeed the fastest in the game at 5F, it is an amazing tool. It is also the most unsafe sweep in the game if blocked at -14. It is actually safer to use M. Bison’s slide from point blank than Ryu’s sweep if the opponent blocks it. It’s amazing when used properly but not a tool to just throw out like you can with Gouken’s sweep which is 1F slower but the most safe sweep in the game at -3 on block point blank.
I’ve never seen Valle or Daigo throw out Ryu’s f-hp unless the opponent was using focus a lot or was in a crumple state. The move has a 17F startup, same as Ryu’s overhead.
As for frame traps? He has a handful at best. Most of Ryu’s normals either have pretty short reach (c.LP/c.LK) or are unsafe on block(other than the aforementioned c.MK which is only -1 on block and has great reach). He is nowhere near as good at frame traps as Cody, Guy, Rose, Sakura, or Cammy. I might argue that he isn’t even as good as Dan or Gouken at frame traps but I’m not sure about that.
While you can mix up Ryu’s DP and make it whiff, the fact it is a 3F invincible wakeup option and thus can’t be safe jumped means you have to give it some respect. Granted the number of options isn’t as varied as say Akuma. It is still a strong contender and not respecting it can lead to eating SRK FADC Ultra 1. I wouldn’t put it at the same level as Akuma, but IMO it’s as good as Bison’s.
hate cammy? try learn to use grapplers instead your epic-dull and monotonous shotos.
they won’t work againts her. don’t believe me? check this out:
Shotos: Hadouken! (eat my plasma projectile)
Cammy: (Now thats a “free opening”). Spin Back Knuckle thru projectiles!!
Shotos: (Got hit) Sh%gsh#€£¥st!@p !!!
Grapplers: Safe/Short Jumping Fierce…
Cammy: (First meal for free) Cannon Drill!
Grapplers: (Too bad…) Block -> 360 Grab Bbbaaammmm!!!
Cammy: (My beautiful butt hurts…)
I said I guess _____?
As in it could maybe be considered as a vortex by certain people.
You can’t throw out footsies or you’ll eat a fireball, you can’t just focus dash because he could do crMK fireball, you can’t jump because he’ll DP you back into the corner therefore its sort of like a vortex.
Look up context in the dictionary buddy.
Typical know-it-all SRK people… ¬_¬
Point being he has average or above average everything…
Other characters will be really good at one or more things but have a major flaw that they have a garbage other things…
Ryu is not weak in any aspects.
corner pressure is vortex…
then guile has really strong vortex…
Only Chun, Boxer and Gen are “much better” at footsies than Ryu is, and separating Ryu’s sweep from this statement shows that you are most likely just looking at a character’s ability to walk fast and poke. A long reaching 5f untechable knockdown with 4 active frames is one of the best whiff punishing tools in the game. Footsie tools don’t become significantly worse because they’re unsafe on block unless it’s one of your only methods of playing footsies (which certainly doesn’t apply to Ryu.) You don’t just “throw” the move out. This is footsies 101. You don’t throw Gouken’s sweep out randomly because it’s hard to punish if they block it. That’s nice, I guess, but having* any* additional frames to think about whiff punishing is extremely valuable to footsies.
5th out of 17 is only “above average”? What kinda scale do you work with? Da Besss/Almost Best/Above Average/Average/Below Average/Worst? Like honestly, I only put him in fifth when it comes to a straight up fireball war. Take other applications into account and he’s easily second or third.
It’s a good punish, it breaks armor. Yeah. But it’s also a good frame trap tool against characters without a 3f normal once they respect your frame traps, and Ryu can blow you up regardless when he has meter. Because, again, you moved the statement out of context. The move is used to keep pressure on and use frame traps. Daigo and Valle go for non-meaty overheads quite frequently, so don’t tell me it’s too slow to do that. Speaking of which, most of Ryu’s normals have short reach or are unsafe on block?
The fuck? First, this is what short range normals look like, which is a problem Ryu does not have.
His normals are unsafe? Ummmm. What normals are unsafe, lead into nothing without a counter hit, and can’t be cancelled into a fireball or EX fireball:
cst.LK (-1, +2)
cst.HK (Super cancel only, -1, +4)
fst.LK (-1, +2)
fst.MK (-5 -2)
fst.HK (-5, -2)
cr.HK* (-14, UTK)
*some characters can’t punish Ryu at it’s maximum range. Also, UTK.
Oh man. Three moves that are -1, two that are -5, and one that’s -14 which shouldn’t be thrown out randomly anyway. No mention of how good DP is at frame traps either? And you can’t safe jump Ryu’s 3f invincible DP, so he has Bison level wake up??? I’m not gonna bother anymore. Step your shit up. Here’s a freebie for when you do: 3f DPs can’t be safe jumped only in technical theory land. Most characters have methods of making most 3f DPs hit on the fourth frame, allowing them to block. Hell, all of them probably can (Ken’s HP just travels…so far, so fast…!)
Right shit man, sorry man I said vortex instead of corner pressure, my bad Mr Know-it-all.
I’ll be sure to upgrade my knowledge next time so I can appease you B-)
Jesus Christ.
Some people forget that they were scrubs at one time too.
Too high on their pretentious pedestal I guess.
man i didnt mean sound pretentious or anything nor do i even know that much
it just ppl calling anything good of any char. a ( vortex)
it still annoys me when ppl say seth is a vortex charcter >:(
( anyway sorry)
Uhhhh… All of those normals have longer reach than the equivalent on Ryu. Especially Seth’s crouching LP which is significantly longer than Ryu’s. Actually Seth’s jabs have pretty solid reach, the hitbox on them I dunno if its as good but the actual reach of the move is pretty good.
seth is also predictable. you either block or neutral jump spd and rape him - easy, b-tier tops, right?
so what do you expect from ryu with full super and ultra?
Don’t argue with The Breaker.
According to him Seth is D Tier lol…
I’m not talking about Seth, what I mean is generally I can hold my own against the high level Ryus, most of the time i’ll get butt raped by high level players but when the guy is playing Ryu I can do some damage and even win, his pressure game is not particularly scary, he doesn’t have any gimmicks, it’s straightforward play thus easier to deal with.
cr.LP is 4f for one. It does reach farther than Ryu’s, but significantly? “Uhhhh” is a good way to look at that.
cst.LP does not hit any crouching character in the game at any time except Sagat (only during certain animation frames.)
fst.LP does not hit any crouching character in the game at any time except Sagat (only during certain animation frames.)
Seth has reach at a quick glance, but the effective range is actually less when you look at the actual hurt boxes of the character’s. Not only that, but Seth being one of the tallest characters in the game effectively stops him from comboing into cst.LP without a Tanden Engine or crumple attack before hand (at which point you kinda wonder “why would I use cst.LP?”)
Not that it really matters much though, it was more of a quick example…“most” normals involve more than Ryu’s cr.LP and cr.LK, which are not his only frame trap options…which I went over already…well, better reply than “durr someone knows more than I do so they’re elitist and think their character sucks!!!” (clearly, putting Seth at 3/39 means I believe he is D tier.)
I hate my main’s matchup against Ryu. When I don’t do a mixup expecting shoryu, he throws. When I do a mixup, he shoryu’s.
And THAT is why I play SkullGirls.
If you look at those pictures more closely, you’ll notice that they are scaled differently. Seth is much taller than Ryu but the images are scaled and make him the same size. Go actually try it out in-game and you’ll see that the reach on Seth’s jabs are pretty significantly longer.
Here is a great way you can tell: look at the large squares in the background, Seth’s c.LP reaches about 4 blocks from his center line (slightly less than 4) whereas Ryu’s reaches just barely 3blocks.
Seth’s far standing LP he leans pretty far forward and the reach on it is almost 30-40% longer than Ryu’s.
However in all of those cases, Ryu’s hurtbox is smaller and safer so so it’s less likely to be stuffed but the discussion was about the REACH and in every one of those cases the reach is longer by quite a bit for Seth.
Here I even went ahead and did the work for you. This is each character backed into the far right corner, with c.LP and s.LP at maximum extension. The images are unscaled and overlayed on top of each other (as you can see by the lines meeting up)
Now if at this point you still believe that Seth’s reach is short and Ryu has great reach you are simply delusional.
- You are correct that Seth’s cr.LP has more range than Seth’s in the context that it “goes a significantly farther distance.” I also specified that “Seth has reach at a quick glance, but the effective range is actually less when you look at the actual hurt boxes of the character’s.”
- Seth’s st.LP does reach much farther than Ryu’s. I did not say that Ryu’s did. However, Ryu can use his st.LP in combos effectively - not really the case with Seth’s st.LP (yet…) I also did not say that Ryu or Seth had “great reach.” I said it wasn’t a fucking problem. I did say that Seth has short range normals. Which is pretty broad to be honest, and not exactly correct either since buttons other than LP exist. But that wasn’t really the point I was making to begin with, and speaking of which…
- Congratulations! You proved me wrong in one small portion about Ryu and Seth’s normals. When I was using only one button as a quick example. About Ryu’s frame traps actually being pretty good. In a retort of why Ryu* is in fact pretty damn good* while not having “one of the best” wake ups in the game.
I stopped discussing frame traps with you when it became apparent you don’t know how to frame trap when you suggested using DP as a “great” frame trap tool.
Frame trapping is to quote James Chen “about getting your opponent to stop blocking.” Now DP is a great tool for blowing up an opponent frame trapping YOU but using it on your own for frame trapping is incredibly risky. If the opponent doesn’t trigger the trap (e.g. try and throw tech or throw out a fast normal or special) and just decides to keep blocking instead of taking the bait, you just either gave him a massive punish opportunity or wasted 2 bars for nothing.
DP - FADC - c.LK/c.LP or dp or throw is a decent mixup but it’s also a very expensive gamble.
Ryus normals that you’d use for frame trapping are what? c.LP, c.MP, c.MK, s.LP, c.LK, and f-hp? How tight are those frame traps?
He can use cst.LP or fst.LP but they whiff on many characters who are crouching so it’s situational.
c.LP = 3F startup +2 on block
c.MP = 4F startup +2 on block
c.LK = 4F startup -1 on block
c.MK = 5F startup -3 on block at point blank
f-HP = 17F startup 0 on block
You can do c.LP - c.MP that is a 2F frame trap. You can do c.MP - c.MP that is a 2F frame trap followed by c.MK which is a 3F frame trap and then you are out of range for any normals except sweep .
c.LK - c.LP is a 4F frame trap, decent but not great.
c.LP - c.LK is a solid 2F frame trap but very range specific since c.LK gets out of range after 2 blocked jabs.
So how many different frame traps can you make that are tighter than 5F for Ryu?
Canceling any normal into fireball is a decent choice, but range dependent for safety. c.MK at almost max range canceled into fireball is safe against most characters because while Ryu’s fireball is -6F at point blank, at that range it is a bit safer and most characters don’t have great options to punish it if they have any, and often the options they have would be kind of risky.
However canceling a c.HP into fireball because you used the c.HP to try and frame trap and it has a huge recovery? Well at that range the fireball is unsafe and you’re gonna eat a punish from many characters.
Now lets look at Cody.
Moves Cody can use for frame traps:
cst.LP (risky as it whiffs on many crouching characters just like Ryu’s cst.LP
fst.LP same issue as Ryu, solid move 3F startup, but whiffs on many crouching opponents.
cst.MP 6F startup +4F on block
cst.HP 8F startup +1F on block (risky but can be used in a couple specific frame traps and the risk vs reward is huge as it leads to his most damage combos via linking to c.HP)
c.LP 4F startup +2 on block (also has 2 more active frames than Ryu’s c.LP)
c.MP 5F startup +1 on block (lots of pushback but also one of the longer reaching c.MPs in the game, nearly 60% longer reach than Ryu’s c.MP and has a great hitbox)
c.HP 7F startup -1F on block
fst.MP 7F startup 0 on block, amazing reach (about 25% longer than Ryu’s fst.MP and has an an extremely good hitbox)
f-MP 8F startup +1 on block (Looks a lot like Ryu’s f-HP, has almost the same range (Ryu’s is slightly longer) but leads to a lot more, is safer, and faster.)
f-HK 14F startup +1 on block, goes over lows, generally only used for starting a frame trap due to long startup and the fact it whiffs on crouchers. Very safe on whiff though, actually has less recovery frames than Ryu’s c.MK)
c.LK 3F startup -1 on block. Not 100% certain but I believe it is the longest range 3F low in the game or close to it.
F-MP - c.LP is a 3F frame trap
F-MP - c.LK is a 2F frame trap
c.LP - c.MP is a 3F frame trap
cst.MP to c.HP is a 3F frame trap
cst.MP to c.MP is a 1F frame trap
cst.MP to f-MP is a 4F frame trap which pushes you closer and allows for more frame traps
cst.MP to f-MP to c.MP to c.LK is a 4F frame trap into a 4f frame trap into a 4F frame trap into a 2F frame trap.
All of which are safe to use and don’t use meter (Cody does have some solid frame traps with FADC into a s.HP that you see Momochi do pretty often. Or the c.HP - EX badstone which is not a very tight frame trap but is safe on block (allowing more pressure) and taking the bait can lead to an easy 350dmg without using any more meter)
You can practically put all of those moves into a hat and pull out and 2 and you’d have a frame trap that is below 5F
Haven’t followed this discussion, but did somebody really say that Cody’s frametraps are bad? Or that Ryu’s are bettero_O