Where do you think Ken really is on the tier list?

[Zimbabwe_Zomb1e]

At this point I don’t care what tier he is, Ken is pretty hard at high level to excel with.

Ooh, so why do you say that?

[OmniCloud]

At this point I don’t care what tier he is, Ken is pretty hard at high level to excel with.

Ooh, so why do you say that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNQd0Te2QXU

Got to learn to one hit confirm, and master V-skill on crush counters. Ken is basically a master counter poker and fishes for damage on his opponents.

[Valoon]

All the Ken got pretty much destroyed in top 8 tho.

About your top 5, I would not put Ken here :

I think Karin is WAY better than Ken and pretty underrated in tier lists. I’d even say Necalli might be better than Ken but that might just be the player using him in top 8 I don’t know.

I’d say Vega is overall better than Ken too. Dhalsim is also arguable.

I am talking overall not talking about matchups Ken vs XX here.

Being nice I’d say Ken to me is mid+, like he is in the top 8 but he is 7th or 8th.

[N0fe_1]

All the Ken got pretty much destroyed in top 8 tho.

About your top 5, I would not put Ken here :

I think Karin is WAY better than Ken and pretty underrated in tier lists. I’d even say Necalli might be better than Ken but that might just be the player using him in top 8 I don’t know.

I’d say Vega is overall better than Ken too. Dhalsim is also arguable.

I am talking overall not talking about matchups Ken vs XX here.

Being nice I’d say Ken to me is mid+, like he is in the top 8 but he is 7th or 8th.

I was actually surprised by how many Kens made it to top 32. I think he’s over-represented for the calibre of character he is. Julio was the only one in top 8 and I thought he didn’t play that well. There was of course that 2 combo 100% victory Julio got, but everything else was so sloppy and unsafe. I was watching his play and I feel like once people get more used to playing v.s. Ken and realize he is negative on all his non-lights/cr.mp, they will respect him a lot less. I don’t mean to criticize Julio, he’s amazing player. I’m commenting on Ken in general. There were some instances where Julio could have been punished quite hard but the other player didn’t react.

One thing I find unreasonably hard is the confirm time on his cr. lk > cr. lp/st. lp F. SRK combo. Maybe I’m just bad but I swear it’s a lot harder to confirm than his SF4 jab confirms ever were, and it was a link back then. That’s one thing that could be buffed. I don’t know about the rest. I find myself being forced to play lame at farther distances v.s. a lot of characters, and his fireball is just awful. Maybe a fireball buff is in order.

[beesuit]

You have to cancel into his dp from lights now. In 4, you could link it so you are right that you had more time to confirm since you could wait for lights to end, then link dp. Now in 5, if you wait too long then you miss the cancel window for the light moves into dp.

You pretty much have to confirm off the first light, cause by the time you input the second light you’re already buffering in the dp motion for it to combo. Unless of course, you buffer it all the time and hold off on the punch input for dp. If the ranges weren’t so stubby and we had one more light to hit confirm, then I’d be going for lows a lot more in 5. I just can’t react/hit confirm fast enough right now, so the most I get is two lights into nothing (usually walk forward throw).

[Wasted]

I was actually surprised by how many Kens made it to top 32.

Why? He hits reasonably hard and is fast and aggressive, with legit hit confirms and a DP.

I think he’s over-represented for the calibre of character he is.

How so?

Julio was the only one in top 8 and I thought he didn’t play that well.

Because he’s Julio. Brentiscool had a much closer game vs Infiltration of all people.

There was of course that 2 combo 100% victory Julio got, but everything else was so sloppy and unsafe. I was watching his play and I feel like once people get more used to playing v.s. Ken and realize he is negative on all his non-lights/cr.mp, they will respect him a lot less.

Even Infiltration falls for Ken’s unsafe stuff. Welcome to yomi.

I don’t mean to criticize Julio, he’s amazing player. I’m commenting on Ken in general. There were some instances where Julio could have been punished quite hard but the other player didn’t react.

Julio is probably the worst Ken you could be looking up to.

One thing I find unreasonably hard is the confirm time on his cr. lk > cr. lp/st. lp F. SRK combo. Maybe I’m just bad but I swear it’s a lot harder to confirm than his SF4 jab confirms ever were, and it was a link back then. That’s one thing that could be buffed. I don’t know about the rest. I find myself being forced to play lame at farther distances v.s. a lot of characters, and his fireball is just awful. Maybe a fireball buff is in order.

No, you just suck. We had to confirm off of harder things for years.

[Valoon]

You have to cancel into his dp from lights now. In 4, you could link it so you are right that you had more time to confirm since you could wait for lights to end, then link dp. Now in 5, if you wait too long then you miss the cancel window for the light moves into dp.

You pretty much have to confirm off the first light, cause by the time you input the second light you’re already buffering in the dp motion for it to combo. Unless of course, you buffer it all the time and hold off on the punch input for dp. If the ranges weren’t so stubby and we had one more light to hit confirm, then I’d be going for lows a lot more in 5. I just can’t react/hit confirm fast enough right now, so the most I get is two lights into nothing (usually walk forward throw).

Not really you just input the dp no matter what but you press the button only after you see both hit. I find this one pretty easy actually and I suck. b.mp is way harder for me.

[beesuit]

I’m gonna have to practice that then, much easier confirming the one button press to finish the dp vs eyeing whether to begin the dp or not.

[Kierkegaard]

So anyone found a use for jumping lk? He sticks his foot so high above him? I think maybe I’m gonna use it for jumpin or something to see if stuffs anything lol.

Air to air maybe?

Anyone who has a v.reversal that ‘parries’ a move (like Bison) can be blown up with a nuetral jump lk if they are in a the corner after knockdown. The lk will trigger Bison’s v.reversal and you will land with time to get off a throw while he is in the reversal state. It also hits lower that jumping fierce giving you a better chance of creating some sort of safeish jump scenario.

Air to air is no good as far as I’m concerned. One thing I know for sure is like jumping fierce blows as an air to air.

[OilyKoryuken]

he’s at his boiling point

[OmniCloud]

So anyone found a use for jumping lk? He sticks his foot so high above him? I think maybe I’m gonna use it for jumpin or something to see if stuffs anything lol.

Air to air maybe?

Anyone who has a v.reversal that ‘parries’ a move (like Bison) can be blown up with a nuetral jump lk if they are in a the corner after knockdown. The lk will trigger Bison’s v.reversal and you will land with time to get off a throw while he is in the reversal state. It also hits lower that jumping fierce giving you a better chance of creating some sort of safeish jump scenario.

Air to air is no good as far as I’m concerned. One thing I know for sure is like jumping fierce blows as an air to air.

Cool, any use is good, don’t want to have useless buttons.

[Landonio]

I was actually surprised by how many Kens made it to top 32.

Why? He hits reasonably hard and is fast and aggressive, with legit hit confirms and a DP.

I think he’s over-represented for the calibre of character he is.

How so?

Julio was the only one in top 8 and I thought he didn’t play that well.

Because he’s Julio. Brentiscool had a much closer game vs Infiltration of all people.

There was of course that 2 combo 100% victory Julio got, but everything else was so sloppy and unsafe. I was watching his play and I feel like once people get more used to playing v.s. Ken and realize he is negative on all his non-lights/cr.mp, they will respect him a lot less.

Even Infiltration falls for Ken’s unsafe stuff. Welcome to yomi.

I don’t mean to criticize Julio, he’s amazing player. I’m commenting on Ken in general. There were some instances where Julio could have been punished quite hard but the other player didn’t react.

Julio is probably the worst Ken you could be looking up to.

One thing I find unreasonably hard is the confirm time on his cr. lk > cr. lp/st. lp F. SRK combo. Maybe I’m just bad but I swear it’s a lot harder to confirm than his SF4 jab confirms ever were, and it was a link back then. That’s one thing that could be buffed. I don’t know about the rest. I find myself being forced to play lame at farther distances v.s. a lot of characters, and his fireball is just awful. Maybe a fireball buff is in order.

No, you just suck. We had to confirm off of harder things for years.

Um, I didn’t say any of that bub. Thanks for the misquote.

[MGS]

I could see Ken being top 5 if the players are able to master every small (but important) nuance of ken’s tools. There is so much to grind into muscle memory that I believe his relative difficulty to the rest of the cast is skewing people’s perception of how good or bad he is. Hell, even when watching momochi’s replays I see him botch the single hit-confirm off of b.mp from time to time.

Another example would be ken’s crouching Mp, the decision tree after it being blocked it huge and you have to be able to react to it being blocked, landing, or landing a counter-hit.

If he gets solidified as a top-tier I’d imagine that it would take at least 6 months to a year before we start to really see his potential.

Yeah, I think he’ll get buffed though. For his normals to be stubby like Ryu but not have the zoning defensive game, I don’t think it should be this difficult to confirm into damage. I think he’s a little “too” balanced lol for lack of better phrasing. Good example, his fireball outside of V-trigger is whack recovery, but full screen, that doesn’t matter much. and you can still use it as a poke. But he is definitely not designed like Ryu to do the standard c.mk FB anymore. So why is his c.mk so booty? Why can’t it actually be pretty fast 4-5 frame start-up and -2 or -3 on block? I need a reason to use standing strong instead of crouching. And what’s the use for his jumping lk again? I read in a video it’s for opponents who have a higher jumping arc? Um…what? Shoto are not air-to-air masters in the first place, I’m gonna DP that junk, I don’t need no light air attack to “tap” people out of the air with, let me cross-up with lk like Ryu.

Either way, it’s a much better starting point than what we got in SFIV, but I feel like Capcom does this all the time. Ken’s initial version is always too good, gets nerf stick. Ryu is perfect, but discovered later it’s too good lol. Overall I’m satisfied with him, but still feel Ryu is better. Would like to see a better c.mk, one safe on block normal you can run off of, and give us regular jumping lk back. Ken’s current one is so stupid lol.

Still too early to call tiers though. I haven’t had a particular problem with a character versus the player just beating me. Birdie is tough, but if you get creative when you get in close you can own him. Thought Bison was impossible, but same thing, get in close, and he can get wrecked. Sim, Chun, Gief, they are all pretty tough, but haven’t ran into players that really mastered them, so can’t say if they aren’t 5-5 matches or not yet. Still way to early for tier list. I just feel Ken isn’t at the top.

No way would we get safe run pressure, nobody in this game gets anything like that. It seems to be a core tenet of SFV design, best case scenario you are -2 (this is a common quality to any move that moves you forwards, it seems, you end up at -2. ie. Ken s.mk) OR your move has really long startup like Zangief charged punch, Mika charged kick, Bison df+hp and still pretty modest + frames on block, and you are too far out for a throw. Ken’s run isn’t exactly fast but we can cancel it off a large amount of normals and use it to confirm really big damage off far reaching pokes, and it puts us back in throw distance… it is a cool and unique advantage to have.

You also gotta remember Ken has (in my research, which still needs a few more iterations) the only 4 frame medium strength button in the game in b+MP which is an advantage we’ll notice the benefits of more in the long run because of the button priority system.

**I think they made c.mk pretty bad on purpose to avoid that c.mk xx fireball sameyness that to casual players makes all the shotos seem like the same character. imo I think making hado -10 on block did enough for that but you know… I think that was Capcom’s idea there. To compensate we got a seriously buff c.mp like holy shit that thing is good. It would be nice to have more reach on c.mk to pin people in down-back for longer but we are living without it so far **

The j.lk thing is just bizarre. It even looks dumb. I miss the old one, dunno why they took it away. iirc this j.lk is his old neutral jump lk? It does have 7 active frames, more than any of Ken’s other moves, and it would have seriously reduced blockstun vs. his other jump-in normals so I think there may be some tricks possible with it

i’d agree with you here if Ryu didn’t have a better cr.mk, cr.mp and hadouken. lets not even compare st. mp…between Ryu and ken. good grief.

[Valoon]

I think they made our cr.mp worse on papers because ours leads to everything Ken could possibly do. Especially the cr.mp xx vtrigger who leads to 30% damage at least.

[MGS]

I think they made our cr.mp worse on papers because ours leads to everything Ken could possibly do. Especially the cr.mp xx vtrigger who leads to 30% damage at least.

On paper? It’s worse in every way haha. I’m not dropping Ken I enjoy using him but ryus data definitely makes me envious. 30% isn’t a huge amount most of the cast can do that. When you add the fact that v trigger is what makes it work, it’s even worse. Cuz you’re down to about 30% health yourself.

[Valoon]

I don’t know if it’s worst in every way. I might be biased because that’s all Ken players (me included) use so it seems good, but I guess it’s might be just good compared to his other buttons.

[OmniCloud]

Ryu’s c.mp is not that much better. And ken can target combo off his. I would love Ryu’s standing MP though and c.mk to just be -3 on block.

[Valoon]

Yes our c.mk is bad. Like trash tier.

[Frost]

I think we have good buttons overall, every button is great excluding cr.mk but even that has it’s uses if you poke it out trying to catch forward dashes and buffer m.tatsu/fireball or something. It just isn’t a good poking tool anymore like the usual shoto cr.mk, I prefer using st.mp and st.hk to poke with Ken and even then I think the term poking is used loosely. Ken can’t really poke in this game, aside from literally just using st.hk and fireballs.

[Valoon]

yes but I think we are not seeing right now just how bad cr.mk is. Shit is -4, I am pretty sure Ryu can super punish it on block and I am sure Laura can super punish it on block from any distance.

And probably many more, I need to try it but I guess you can just DP it with Ryu/Ken too.

I don’t think it’s that good of a button to deserve -4.