Joe and Vice aren’t bottom. Joe has to be more proactive though and set up his corner traps but his ability to mix up his block strings so he wouldn’t do predictable strings could be guard rolled have been buffed. The st.A that hits everyone crouching and really faster f.B that’s the equivalent of his old Far D in old games are really good for this. In the past he didn’t really have a means to control vertical air-space from the ground and it’s even more emphasized in KOFXIII. Vice has been always a character that sets the pace with her hcf+K to limit most opponent’s grounded options and forces them to commit to a hop or a jump, in which Vice has a million options to counter them. So she isn’t about rushing an opponent to the corner, it’s about forcing an opponent error that will give her the strong oki game. A single good j.CD or the opponent getting hit by a good hcf+B > hcbf+P will singlehandledly give Vice her oki game, which is one of the strongest in KOF XIII.
Sorry Return of Shiki, it sounds like you lack insight or creativity to optimally use these characters. I seriously think that the balance of this game is so good that the lines are really really blurred right now, even more so than when SSFIV came out. With SSFIV, you just knew that Makoto, Hakan, and Dan were ass.
I think it’s hard to make a tier list for the game at the moment…certain characters are “easier” to use than others but most of the cast have a good number of tools and are viable.
Andy seems really really really complete. I mean…wow. That’s all I can say. Nigga has it all. Pokes, hit confirms, good damage, solid zoning/containment, AA. Smh.
I feel that he’s almost back to 98 status. What he just lacks in comparison is the lol dp+B he had in 98. In lieu, his dp+D eats through anything in the air and does more damage so it’s irrelevant. So the only thing I really miss is the 02 Far C for safer frame traps rather than canceling into and committing to a Raijinken. Then again, he has TK Air Raijinken now so that recompensates for it in a way. The only other issue is not having old j.CD, but Air Raijinken and his other new tools compensate for that. I feel he’s “high tier” within my ambiguous tier list where everyone is A tier.
Vice and Joe shouldn’t be there. Ralf I feel is high tier because of Damage Output, Frame traps, and spacial control. He pretty much put together his 98 normals and his 02 normals together and has an instant overhead j.D along with j.A and j.CD canceling into a much, much safer Dive. So his offense and defense are really good. He was one of the more used character in the Arcade version’s later life being played by players such as Myuu and El Rosa. He only got buffed. I don’t know why he’s bottom on that list unless you just don’t understand the character or the game.
Ive been playin KoF since 94. Everybody in this game is good however when you start comparing them against each other, cream rises to the top, Saying Ralf should be top due to DMG out put is like saying T.Hawk should be top due to his DMG out put. What is DMG out put if I wont let you close to me? Like some one said earlier, Is 13 vice better then 02 vice? Hell is 13 ralf better then 98 Ralf? Also benimaru was always good or okay in most KoF games, in this game however I feel something is… Off… the same way Joe is and joe issue is his Tiger Knee. Its too lateral. I know Dps in this game are not use for AAs but Slash Kick and TK is almost the same move with different animation and speed.
also this is just speculation and my opinion. hell look at my sig, look at who I main In AE? LOL.
I play everybody in this game except Chin, Shen and Duolon.
Does Ralf even need to get close? Do you even understand the kind of moveset he has with his normals. Far C, Far D, j.D, j.B st.CD, df.A, cancelable Sweep, j.CD, deep j.A like Clark’s. He’s a spacial monster. XIII Vice lost hcf+P but she gained a normal, not floaty hop arc which heightens her aerial control and movement. Joe’s Tiger Knee has been ass, but you needed to preempt the air space with his good specials and jump attacks, he wasn’t mainly for mid-screen zoning control but corner attrition and he’s specifically designed to even do that better.
You’re thinking all in the wrong perspective of things.
Honestly. I want to know why SNK took away Goro’s Auto guards from 12? hell why is Clark the only Grappler to have one auto guard move? Goro in 12 was phenominal but its a shame not that many played the game. He was great in 98 as well. I dont even use grapplers in SNK games that much like i do in Capcom ones. but When I played Goro and Maxima in the console version I was disappointed, A day before the console version came out I played the Arcade version and Raiden was a MONSTER now he’s just normal. Clark? Absolute beast in this game. Just a stud. When I played 94 I mained Brazil and I love the irkari warriors. I was dissapointed with Ralf in 12 and eventhough he’s okay in this one, he just seems off to me and I dont like how he dont have SAB at all in this game. building meter with back dashXX Blitzkrieg Punch is great but it is what it is.
Joe’s always had those two major flaws. Tiger Kick rarely anti-airs only against telegraphed and poorly-placed jumps so vertical control is key, and guard rolls give him a bit of trouble.
His tools for dealing with both are much improved. St.D and st.A cover hops as do all his specials, so he just really has to watch for jumps. The only tool downgraded for that is his lack of a horizontal j.B, but he still had j.CD and the new j.D for air to air situations. Joe’s anti-air options are much easier to use in the corner so he just has to set the opponent up or position himself to intercept a jump with a corresponding attack, or just keep blockstringing and preemptively anti-airing. Worst case he can do an abare ex screw upper which is a legitimate answer at times.
St.A gives Joe new blockstring pressure options since it hits mid and combos into f+A so he doesn’t have to commit to heavier attacks as often as before. Also Guard rolls are worse this time around, though he can bait them easier with lights or by canceling to golden heel. His jump ins are a little stronger than usual, and bakuretsuken blockstrings are new and very safe against GC Rolls. Most of his specials are better than usual, and all push the opponent into the corner where he can sit to apply pressure and punish heavier mistakes for 45% for one meter.
Even Joe’s midscreen control is stronger than before since he can run behind a light upper to get in and thrust kick can be spaced pretty easily to anti-air, punish rolls attempts through projectiles, or just hit and be safe. A basic hitconfirm sends the opponent over half the screen back.
I don’t see why you rate Joe so low. What does the rest of the cast have over him?
My guess is that HD Bypass to grapple combo is too good. Don’t play Daimon or Clark, so I don’t know if they have any dominant normal attacks. Clark can do a grapple combo into NeoMAX too, so I’m not 100% sure that’s the reason.
Daimon’s autoguards were never important. What made him strong in old games were normals and oki game. What makes him strong in XIII? Normals, oki game, combos off command grabs. Clark has Ralf’s normals (biggest ones being df.A, Far C, Far D) so his spacing game is about as good as Ralf’s.
eh, joe was approaching A-tier in arcade version in japan due to his low cost redizzy (though it requires extremely high execution) and he still has that along with the other buffs they gave him. and with the new slide-cancel he can even go into it with even less resources now (now only requires 0.8 drive)
Well, golly gee then, if everyone is so goddamn good in this game then why don’t you enlighten me as to who you actually think IS bottom tier.
Don’t pull that Super SF4 “everyone is so good” bullshit --Super SF4 wasn’t ‘balanced’ because so many characters were good but because most characters were neutered; KOF 13 Arcade was not a balanced game, and not all the buffs they gave out are equal. Yuri and King’s buffs in particular are fucking ridiculous.
Tiers aren’t about how good a character is, but how good they are in relation to the rest of the cast. Why don’t you show me some of these “creative” users of Joe and Vice who have been winning so many tournaments?
Sparkster won STL Bar Warz which doesn’t mean too much in the context of things for Joe but he exhibits more optimal tactics. Haregoro is a great Joe player that kept up with the rest of the Japanese tier whore scene during arcade edition. Vice is just slept on because none of the XIII players know how to use her optimally, but she does get some play now and then. People know how to do the hit resets into EX HCF+K and HD combos but they lack the overall fundamentals of the character to set the pace. It’s like how no one played Mature post 1.0 Arcade version and I tried to run her in the console version at STA Ranbats to show good fundamental Mature play and how she works in XIII and what she gained that compensates her losses from the old games. I’ll go out to Final Round and show Vice if I have to, but I am no obligated to show “you” good Vice.
I don’t need to show you more creative users, you lack the imagination to see what they could do in the full run of things. So it does not matter what I show you, the problem is you spouting things out with conviction when you clearly lack the insight and imagination of how things work.
Joe seems pretty solid in this game his damage is good and he really has all the tools he needs to succeed.
However, I think Billy is hands down best character in game currently with kyo and iori right on his heels. Man gets way too much damage for that range with no meter. Bastard can pull over 300+ meterless midscreen. Only thing he doesn’t have the best of is HD combo’s.
Also anchor Goro on meter is probably the scariest character in the game.
Im messing around with mai and think she’s a solid point choice as she gets mad damage with little meter (around 450 for 1 ex stock in the corner) . She doesn’t have the BS like command throw into death or overhead into death like kyo and goro have though so if she gets use its limited to point when no one has meters stacked against her.
Relax, I got you covered. Here’s some Vice footage I found, Bala used her in some matches of Revelations 2011:
Spoiler
[media=youtube]UVPFMV5w71I[/media]
I pick up some basics like her command grab, good wake up mixups, and an “anywhere” EX Deicide allowing combos to continue off air hits/counterpokes. I don’t play her so I don’t have anything more advanced.
So even if his autoguard were kept, it wouldn’t make up a big part of his gameplan. Doesn’t answer why the autoguard was removed though. Much thanks for the info.
Yeah, the only ones who know are the developers. So trying to decipher “why” is almost moot. Rather, I would try to decipher “how” does that fit into the context of the whole character and of the whole game. So that’s why I said it’s irrelevant rather than trying to come up with a reason why the developers removed it because it could be any sort of reason. They could have even taken it out because “they felt like it” or that “they forgot.” So yeah, it is what is but at the least it doesn’t matter too much.
I’m not speaking with conviction, which is why I’m asking for footage. I admit I can be wrong and no tier list is set in stone.
I forgot about Bala, and thanks to Sketchspace for the footage I can admit that Vice isn’t bottom tier. I didn’t personally know that Deicide could grab people out of the air. Just being able to see that can change my opinion.
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing with just 1 video. Is that really so much to ask? That’s what I’m asking for in tiering characters.