I actually like atomic suplex, it’s a great corner carry.
Granted, dwu will screw with giefs vortex, but you know what? Screw the vortex, use lp gh all day until you push their corpse into the corner.
So against gief, it basically becomes
a) do i wake up normally and might get into a vortex?
b) do i wake up late and might get corner carried?
As a gief, i like both of these outcomes. Get rid of that vortex > all thought, with ultra, that is going to be over.
So with no mixup game after a kd because of dwu how exactly will Gief get his damage? You say just use lp gh all day? Okay, so that’s how you’re gonna win matches? Spam jab gh all day lol.? On hit it’s still a free throw every time isn’t it? So our options are get thrown or we can backdash right? And if they guess backdash say bye bye to our life.
Also some are saying that the slight jab spd range nerf won’t be a big deal but there are plenty of times where we were able to punish moves with max range jab spd and now we won’t be able to. Now what do we punish with? Probably just a st.mp and that damage loss will add up. I’m hoping UltraDavid has some positive news for us after playing a little Ultra at FR.
Nope, no free throw, as far is i know.
You can simply delay crouch tech (for srk mashers and that kind of stuff) or jump cancel lariat against throws.
After crouch tech (on block) you still get your 50/50:throw/attack since they will be close to gief.
I see lp gh as a buff because gief will almost ALWAYS be close in Ultra. Dhalsims st. hp? block and lp gh in, sure you probably get hit by something right after (if you cant block already, yet to be tested), but you will be much closer now regardless of pushback (block or hit). lp gh got buffed to be a better tool and since you dont need ex meter anymore, you become scarier nearby.
Pick Ultra 2 all day, since you’ll have super once per match (at least against non projectile chars). That way you basically have ultra 2 for full damage and ultra 1 (aka super) for a little bit less than usuall, instead of both being at 60% dmg because of Double Ultra
Snakeeyez, I have some questions for you about the newest GIef-Itaration, which I personally like.
EX-GH is now 13frames and +1 on hit, and it leaves you close enough for Close 360? Is it like this at ALl ranges? and does that also make U2 a really viable mixup tool vs. Backdashes when we hit with ex-GH?
How did the s.mp nerf feel? any different?
Does the new LP-GH create any mobility for midscreen play? especially vs. Zoners? Im not talking about in their faces kind of mobility, but moving closer to a zoner when hes batiing jumps etc?
Did you notice any range reduction on Zangief s.lk? or is it just a false rumor?
After +1 EXGH, U2 catches in 9 frames (6 pre-jump then 3 startup). Not enough frame advantage to grab back dashes. You need +5 at least for the poor quality back dashes. And possibly more +frames for the better back dashes, though spacing distance dependent. It’s more so to do with increasing distance created by the back dash and the fact that U2 starts up so slow and loses some frames to travel forward and catch. If they all back dashed in the corner, U2 after EXGH would hit 100%.
Also for Snake Eyez:
After SPD-LPGH or MPGH, how easy is it for an opponent to punish LPGH with a jump back normal into full combo. I’m guessing, the threat of LPGH-PPP has made that a little harder, probably not by much. But now, they can no longer take their sweet time. It would be overpowering, if LPGH answers both jump back and back dash. I know, LPGH owns neutral jump even better than its AE2012 counterpart.
But even now, after LP-SPD +lp-gh when you do U2 you can catch a lot of people backdashing. Because you are left so close. not the great backdashers like chun, or fei. But Honda, and Sagaiiiooot.
Isn’t the point of u2 to catch anything airborne? You should be able to catch all backdashes including bs ones like Rose and it should be able to activate on the ground but of course that will never happen. So many times I’ve caught opponents backdashing only to have u2 whiff.
Damn, that’s even better. I’m probably gonna go U1 in most matchups. I’d rather my opponents be afraid of jumping than being afraid to DP a jump-in (which Gief should rarely do against DP chars anyway). Besides, shotos don’t have to worry about U2 much because of EX DP and most other chars can AA Gief with normals just fine.
I think that’s more than decent. Once you get those 3 bars, Gief’s mixup becomes similar to Seth’s, where the opponent is more likely to take the SPD since it’s the least damaging option. And max damage combos for when they do jump/backdash will be easier since cr.LK has more advantage.
A damaging hit confirm, IMO, is the missing link that Gief needed to be a legit threat. Think of all the normals you can punish on reaction with st.LK xx GH/EX GH. Now imaging that punish doing 400+ damage.
Yeah. That is true. So you only need +3 and not even point blank, more like HP SPD range. But the variable post positioning of EXGH, makes instant U2 not feasible. If it was +3 or +2 on hit, then you have a winner.
I got confused with +5, because of how it relates to Sagat’s aerial options.
Just to reconfirm:
To counter all aerial options: Reversal Uppercuts, EX reversal uppercuts, Back dash, Jumps. You need the following frame advantage.
Based on 7 frames required to reach U2’s invincibility activation. Although, it could be 1 frame less, if your not point blank, and the reversal needs time to reach you.
5 frame uppercuts: You need +3 frame advantage before U2
4 frame uppercuts: You need +4 frame advantage before U2
3 frame uppercuts: You need +5 frame advantage before U2
But I think, spacing will be key. You have to be close before you activate. Zangief’s cr.lp’s +5 on hit is key to setting up the U2 50/50 gamble against shoryukens/back dash/jump
It would be a very tight window, but the hardest part for me, would be getting the entire motion out before the cr.lp ends. You have to go into pre-jump from frame 1 right after.
It’s also interesting to note that: Aquasilk and all U2 Zangief’s should push for the frame data of U2 to become.
2+1 or 3+0, if that is even possible.
So that U2 starts up before the Ultra pause, and sucks in many many more shoryuken’s during your Kamikaze descend. Those 2-3 extra frames before the flash bang is vital for Ryu, Ken and Akuma to commit to the purchase.
You can! It’s just that you have no solid setup. But jumping Heavy attacks ON HIT or splash ON HIT would probably be the only setup against the GREATEST back dashes in the game. That’s the only way, you could compensate for the start up of U2. But you gamble the damage of the jump in combo.
There is just no other tool quite like U2. It covers air space fast. Gives you vast aerial defensive options. And can setup dangerous 50/50 gambles.
Don’t be fooled, the 50/50 off of U1 and U2, as demonstrated from the USF4 mechanics video, is just stupid. It’s not even 50/50!!! It’s 25/25/25/25
People forget that LP SPD and U2 is a far better mix than, U1 and U2 at 60%.
But I can see how players would be going U1 and U2. They get air control and a threat after combos into regular GH. And that is in my opinion, the biggest drawing factor to W Ultra.
If regular GH was not -2 on hit, then that fact alone, cripples double Ultra - as you no longer need a 1 frame invincible grab.
EX-GH in the current update doesnt vary how close to the opponent you get. You land close enough for suplex everytime it lands. Thats why I asked the question. and its back to 13frame and +1 on hit.
Wouldnt it be around 380 damage after scaling if youd use c.lp XX lp-glove RFC dash HP-SPD?
Damn, that is a nerf compared to the current AE2012 EXGH. Zangief loses so much smarts being point blank and has to start gambling. The current spacing after EXGH has been so versatile, you have so many options.
Now if your point blank after EXGH, all your options, are condensed down to 2. Notably, you lose back dash LP SPD to punish shoryuken FADC back dash. You lose walk back LP SPD. All your light normals are so much more weaker and riskier without that crucial spacing, where they can be supported by LP SPD on confirm.
Don’t forget, leaving us closer makes cr.LK stronger since you have more room to hit confirm if you tag them for trying to jump/backdash. And since we’re so close, we may be able to punish SRK xx FADC backdash with walk forward SPD
You can stand pretty close to opponents and backdash their uppercut with gief. BEsides getting in close, is reallllly good for pressure. You have longer confirms, holding ub isnt as good vs. Gief anymore. You can with the new speed of LP-Flats os some backdashes with c.lp lpgh c.lk/c.lp (Can be done to Sagat right now, but you get punished on hit.) In addition as Chief mentioned, you might get to punish uppercut backdash, feks vs. Swaggot.
Thinking what it might be like doing Oses vs. backdash now (depending on length.)
c.lp ~c.mk~ c.lp/c.lk
c.lk ~LP-Flats~ c.lp/c.lk
The c.mk might get you in range for an SPD-Punish on short backdashes.
Im just thinking, but im pretty sure the new EX-GH is a big buff. Douuuu I dont understand why it cant be +2, since it costs a bar and is our main pressure combo-move.
If its true that redfocus does 1.5dmg of normal focus, and that it does not add scaling from c.lp XX lp-gh gief does 612 dmg with U1, and 423 dmg with HP.SPD