Would people still play? What would the outcome of the tournament then be? Could a true tier list be comprised or would it still be dependent on your draw? Obviously with the way the tournament is now the more people you are good at playing the better your odds for…counter picking but wouldnt it say more for a person using only one character instead of multiple ones.
Just curious on what the community thinks about this.
Maybe its just me… but I’m remembering last week’s Wakeup Shoryuken where the guest talked about the differences between tournaments in Japan and in the US, formatting, number of games, characters used etc.
I would think, that if you had to keep the same character, but the rules stayed the same, best 2 of 3 games in pools, more matches in outrounds… then you’d have a situation where competitive players would ditch low tier characters altogether and we’d see a bunch of Ryu’s, Balrogs, etc. I mean some people stick it out with one character anyway, like you do Sweet, like I do mostly with Cammy, but I would think that there’d be an even higher overrepresentation of higher tier characters.
Now in the Japanese system, you keep one character, but its one game, and that’s it. Which makes low tier more viable. Example: I can beat Honda one game? Yeah! Can I do it 2 out of 3? With Cammy, that’s really hard, Can I do it 3 out of 5? Really? An 8-2 matchup 3 out of 5 times? If my base odds of winning start off at 20% and I have to do it three times then my odds have decreased to a little better than 6% at this point so of course, low tier goes out the window. But if I only have to play once and I know i start in the hole but my chance is still 20%? I’ll stick it out.
Good topic BTW
Afro legends would still win, with either of his mains, lol.
But in all honesty, how many top-calibur tourney players do/know how to play more than one character at high levels? I’d say this would affect only a minority of (versatile) players
One char only is the standard where I’m from. Stunfest, the upcoming EU major also upholds the single character rule for their games. I always stick with Blanka anyways.
For singles best 2-out-of-3 I say the only fair way to do it is allow character changes for the loser. That way you technically don’t have an excuse to say “I only lost because I was faced with an impossible matchup”. Makes for more excitement too.
What Japanese tournaments are one character single elimination?
Most of the time in Japan you see 3v3 teams, 1v1 with three slots, and sometimes 2v2.
A big misconception is that because Japan doesn’t allow for counter picking that they cannot setup situations where huge character mismatches intentionally occur in tournaments. Yes, you cannot lose a match, then directly counter pick your opponent in Japanese style tournaments. But there are other subtle ways to try to align favorable characters matches. You can choose team order strategically, or stack your team with certain characters, so that easier matches line up for your team. A good example of this is the SBO AE finals in 2007. Ohnuki and Muteki are on a team, Ohnuki is N.Chun, Muteki is CE.Guile. The other team is Taira using CE.Vega and Shiro using N.Ryu. Ohnuki wanted to make the matches so that Muteki’s CE.Guile would take on Shiro’s N.Ryu (a match that favors CE.Guile), and so that his N.Chun would take on Taira’s CE.Vega (one of the few matches were CE.Vega has trouble winning).
Ohnuki (N.Chun) guessed that Taira (CE.Vega) would choose to go second for his team. So Ohnuki chose blindly to go second as well to try to align his team to have a favorable match against CE.Vega. Ohnuki guessed correctly, and after Muteki plowed through Shiro, all that was left was for his [media=youtube]2DcjICgVs_s&#t=29s"[/media] to take the SBO finals.
In 1v1 tournaments in Japan where you get three character slots there are many top players who will elect to use multiple characters instead of choosing their main for all three slots. Otochun has been known to use Honda, Ryu, and Guile in tournaments. YuuVega plays an incredible DJ as well as Dictator. K plays Boxer, Fei, O.Sagat, and O.Hawk in tournaments. Aniken uses Ryu, Boxer, and Ken for his team quite often. However just as many, if not more Japanese players, tend to stick to their main exclusively in tournaments. Taira, Futachan, Nogyo, Kachu, Seki, Muneo, almost never pick anyone besides their mains in a tournament.
I like the idea of the character slots idea for 1 vs 1. You can “counterpick” if it lines up that way, but you can’t intentionally pull out a gun during a knife fight, so to speak.
I guess I’d still enter, but I’d think it was weird.
Most of the tournaments I’ve been to, you could use whoever you wanted to the first game of your set, but you could only change characters after this if you lost a game during that set.
Minor quibble: that was actually Kurahashi who teamed with Nuki. Muteki teamed with his girlfriend Chamu who plays Chun, and their team was called “Newlyweds”.
It’s an interesting thought experiment regarding single chars. Double elimination makes it harder to stick with a low-tier char, because consistency is emphasised over lucky flukes. However, given the history of American tournaments and the fact that EVO has always allowed multiple characters (i.e. loser can counterpick) … yeah, single char is not going to happen.
Also I think it’s more fun to watch someone like Afro who has completely mastered two chars, than watch some dude who is mediocre with a bunch of chars struggle to win even with counterpicking.
That’s cause the american way is to counter pick.
Quoted from an old thread, seemed relevant. It’s also pretty much my own opinion.
or choice d, his fei needs to learn how to beat thelo’s honda.
Sirlin’s arguments are filled with false logic as usual. I love how X-Mania, Star Cup, and Super Battle Opera are not ‘real tournaments’ according to Sirlin because they do not allow for direct counter picking.
He says that a ‘true winner’ should be allowed to take as many paths of least resistance as possible. They should be allowed to counter pick and character switch at any point in the tournament so give them a favorable advantage. Doesn’t that system allow for lesser players to advance further into a tournament because they are able to exploit an easier match rather than have to endure the difficult ones? Wouldn’t a ‘rightful winner’ be the one who perseveres through a tournament despite having to face some tough character matches?
And in Japanese tournaments everyone is under the same rules where counter picking is prohibited. Meaning the ‘rightful winner’ will be determined from a field of players who also must stick with a consistent character or set of characters. There is no artificial advantage granted.
Sirlin is basically saying that people who counter pick should be allowed to force people who main one character to have to play more disadvantageous matches more often in a tournament. With counter picking you see the people who main only one character having to face lopsided matches more often because opponents can counter pick. With Japanese tournaments people who main one character simply encounter who they encounter and it’s essentially luck of the draw. Japanese tournaments offer no shortcuts for counter picking.
I believe Damdai said “tournaments that allow for counter picking don’t accurately reflect tiers”. And you can substitute ‘tiers’ for ‘who the best player is’.
I think you hit the nail on the head on what I was getting at VFF. Sure when you enter a tournament you can run into bad matchups but by allowing the opponent to change their character if they lose just allows for even more bad matchups.
It doesnt seem like EVO would ever go to how the Japanese tournaments run thiers but it would surely be interesting.
Wait, please explain further.
If Sirlin were allowed to counterpick with Ryu against Thelo, why wouldn’t Sirlin be considered the better player? If Thelo were truly superior to Sirlin, he’d have more knowledge of the matchup and win. I would only have a problem with counterpicking if a matchup were truly considered 10-0. Since no such matchup exists in SFII, I really don’t see why counterpicking shouldn’t be allowed.
I disagree. It seems especially bizarre that you would word it as if allowing character select is “forcing the preference” of multi-character players on single-character players. If anything, it’s the opposite - the game naturally allows changing characters between games, and there must be an explicit rule banning you from doing that, so the single-character rule is “forcing the preference” of single-char players on multi-char players.
On the damdai quote, I specifically don’t think you can substitute ‘tiers’ for ‘who the best player is’. Because the goal of a tournament isn’t to determine the best character, it’s to determine the best player.
If a player’s strength is his flexibility between characters, then that should count for something. It’s a legitimate strength, and it’s pretty hard to develop. For instance, I personally choose to master one single character, so I know him better than most players, but I don’t have a competitive chance if I try others. That’s my choice. Another guy, like damdai, can choose to be an expert in many characters, so he can adjust himself to all challengers. That’s also a valid choice. I think that if we face each other in a tourney, it’s fine to allow both me and him the freedom to face each other at 100% strength, instead of having matches with an artificial restriction on character choice, where maybe damdai would have Ken (strong choice), or maybe he would have Dhalsim (mid choice), or maybe he would have Zangief (weak choice).
In a tournament, I want to see players play to their full potential, whichever that is. Leaving the natural character choice between games allows that. I prefer Evo-style tournaments that let players fight to their best strength instead of X-Mania-style tournaments where rules can prevent them from it.
Incidentally, I don’t care much for personal attacks, VFF.
Winner-only switching only makes counterpicking effective if the original winner isn’t willing to counter-counter pick. I’ve got my differences with the consensus matchup chart, but it does illustrate that most of the cast has some really bad matchups. In order to get a significant payoff, you’ve got to roll the dice on the first match character choice.
Not that it matters much, but I think that the ‘no character change’ is really an artifact of the arcade culture where the game tends to lock players into character choice. Evo is a console tourney - IMO unlimited character switching (double blind) is the most natural choice.
Counterpicking means characters who are vulnerable to characters without gross matchups of their own are made less viable - basically having an extra-bad matchup vs Ryu or Balrog should make a character uncompetitive. (That’s why we saw 2x Honda in the top 8 at Evo last year.)
So you believe that a counter pick shows the better player? No, if you are the better player than you choose a character that goes even with or is worse against the opponents character and beat them. That makes you a better player.
If the greatest hawk player gets counterpicked by a honda, does that automatically make the honda player better than the hawk player? Or is it just that the matchup is so stupid.
EDIT: Thelo it sounds like you are talking explictly about a tourney setup where you only get one character? The implication from the japanese rules still lets you choose others as backups. You just can’t explicitly counterpick.
Damdai could choose all three of those chars and you could choose honda 3 times. I don’t see why that’s such a problem?
For the record, Daigo says he prefers Evo over Tougeki. 
If Togeki and EVO were on the same day, which would you attend? Why?
Without hesitation and without doubt, EVO! I’ve been telling everyone about this (Seth, I’m not trying to get on your good side!) There are several reasons. The biggest reason is the tournament rules. Not limited to Togeki, but many tournaments in Japan do give players only one chance, one match. You lose once, and you are done. I find that very dissatisfying. A player like me who practices so hard for a tournament doesn’t get to try out what he has worked for. If we lose in the first round, which can happen to every dedicated and strong player, there is no other chance. We are just left with frustration. The amount of efforts we pour into the event and the moment do not match up for the opportunity we are given. On the other hand, EVO gives every player a fair chance and every player can have fun playing and leave with satisfaction. We all can show the result of days and hours of our hard work. Even if you lose, you can admit your loss and leave in content. And the prize is bigger! That certainly helps too. All in all, EVO is kind to all fighting players. EVO is dedicated for us, and that’s why I love EVO.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/content.php?r=397-You-Ask-Daigo-Answer-Daigo-Love-Evo-Over-Togeki
That just means if you step up at their tournies you better be there to win.