Somebody just asked me for help about this and I honestly have no good answer. Phoenix can basically just airdash upback and spam shot shot unless you Okami Shuffle. And even then, you would need a DHC to finish her off. Having 3 stock meter for snapback, Shuffle, DHC isn’t all that practical for anti-Phoenix tech and probably means that Phoenix is pretty damned close to 5 anyways.
So, any tips here?
Might wanna consider where you are on screen when you snap her in. A lot of people used to say don’t bother going for a combo when you hit the point character, just go for the snapback, but that seems character specific. Mid-screen, Ammy alone isn’t gonna be able to do much. Keep in mind Phoenix’s level 1 Hyper will go through Okami Shuffle and if it’s aimed at Ammy, Ammy will take a lot of damage from Phoenix. Sometimes it trades, but the trade is in Phoenix’s favor. You might think they won’t burn the meter, but some people will knowing the matchup isn’t too terrible for Ammy.
If she’s snapped in while cornered and she air dashes…
Air throw, punish with a combo to build meter before the shuffle.
I sometimes see people use Ammy’s j.H in Thunder Edge stance w/paper to setup people coming in (and yet, it’s easy to avoid the setup by pushblocking the j.H.) Not sure how it works.
I’ve seen the following welcome mix-ups with Ammy.
It’s similar to Daigo’s Jam Session assist mixup. Depending on where the character is when it descends onto the field, your character is actually behind them when you hit them. Head Charge causes a ground bounce, allowing you to easily combo afterwards. For the second mix-up, the paper halts their forward descent, allowing Ammy to hug the screen and cross-up with j.H.
Vale of Mist increases the effectiveness of these mix-ups. In fact, it’s almost needed against Phoenix.
My problem with using Head Charge H is that you basically have to be a sniper with its tiny horizontal hitbox and you can get punished VERY easily if you mess up. That and its startup is pretty long so it doesn’t seem like it would prevent her from just airdashing upback and then blocking the head charge.
As for the paper, wouldn’t they be able to just airdash upback to avoid it? Even if they can’t, couldn’t Phoenix just pushblock the paper to avoid the mixup?
That’s the issue with Ammy. She doesn’t really have a welcome set-up since she prefers to beat you when your feet touch the ground. That being said, I’ve seen Head Charge in Vale of Mist work pretty well.
Both of those set-ups require the corner anyway. As for mid-screen welcome set-ups, there isn’t one other than air throw super which doesn’t do much. You’re better off calling an assist like Jam Session to cross up at that point.
Kill her.
Preferably before she gets 5 bars.
Hey all, I was the one who posed the question to Danimals (I didnt have a chance to respond to your PM yet, but thank you for the prompt and thorough response! great idea making it into a thread!). I dunno if it’s ideal, but my current approach has been to drop paper, call drones, meet them with an air normal, then hope to get a high low of some kind upon landing. Maybe it would be smarter to be in Glaive as if we can land with them, we might be able to threaten a cL vs jump L mixup.
I also agree going into Slow should be very helpful, it just means we need 2 meters before we snap. Danimals said 3 meters, refering to a super for the kill, but I don’t know if that’s entirely necessary if we can start a combo of some sort, as between Phx’s health and the ability to XF, we prob don’t need a super to make the kill.
Another idea someone proposed, I have to test and see if there’s enough time for it to work, is to snap, drop paper, do Slow, then raw tag in Storm (or whoever depending on your team) and then call drones and try to mixup with Storms high-low in the Slow. Just thinkin out loud.
Also, if I call drones and drop paper then do slow, then sj against the corner, then do the qcf+H down, are you guys saying that will cross up like Wolvie’s upward drill claw? if sp that could be particularly nasty, and could be mixuped up with simply not head charging, and therefore not crossing. Food for thought.
When I was talking about the 3 meters, I was mainly talking about punishing shot shot. If you can get a hitconfirm, then you obviously don’t need it, but getting the hitconfirm with tracking balls in the way seems impossible.
Also, I don’t know whether or not you would have enough time to set this up before the snap. You would need to make sure that drones would come in at the exact height that Phoenix would come out, which I think would require calling it from 2/3 or full screen away. I don’t think you’d have enough time to back away that far after snap to have the drones be in that position when she comes out. Once she gets to do upback or up airdash, she can essentially not care and start throwing salty balls. You can drop paper, but she can just pushblock it away, giving her enough room to start more salty balls. It would work if you could drop paper and Phoenix would come into the paper and then the drones immediately afterwards, negating the push, but I don’t think there’s enough time after snap to set that up.
I think the problem with Head Charge would be that you couldn’t do it quickly enough to avoid her doing airdash upback, which would negate any sort of crossup like that. Though this would probably be fast enough to stop her from throwing balls. Of course, Head Charge H is really punishable, so you might want to be careful with this.
The Storm thing sounds like your best bet. Not sure whether or not you would have enough time to do all that, but it sounds like it could work.
And just keep in mind that these are all just my thoughts about it. I haven’t actually tested any of this stuff, so I would still suggest you give all of these a shot in the lab or during a match. I’m basically assuming that once one salty ball is out, you’ve lost your chance at killing Phoenix, but if you can find some good killing punish even after one is out, by all means share it.
Right, this is pretty much theory fighter on my end as well. Mostly cause I’m at work LOL There’s also something to be said for the runaway approach or the "try to hit with random Okami/HailStorm/insert-super-you-have-that-could-tag-'er-here approach. I do like the runaway approach (“like” as in it can work, not as in it’s a blast to do lol), but the problem is unless you still have like 250%+ of your team life, just blocking/eating all the salty balls and traps really adds up fast to the point where you have to start hitting her to get the lead back (sometimes).
Back on the “try to kill her” front, perhaps if we can find a way to tick Phx into being air throwable that could be a sound strategy. Im certainly not claiming to know the best sequence for this, but between paper, drones, or a jumping normal, cant you air throw on a welcome if they’re taken or blocked a hit first? If we can find a good way to set up an air throw, then we could at least have a throw vs hit mixup situation (hit being for when they start teching the throw, ie. pressing buttons).
When I’m home I’ll see what sort of time we have for the raw tag idea. I’ll try to think of stuff for Tron too (though most likely you’ll crack this before me, hehe), both to help you out and because I really like Tron, myself.
[media=youtube]spf4BUkIuHc[/media]
Chris G does some pretty good setups with Veil of Mist after snapping Phoenix in (cornered). What timing that this is on the front page today.
snap back is overrated and a waste of meter more likely than not if you build a solid team dark phoenix should not be a problem. A lot of people will disagree but meh… all i know is my team beat or go even with phoenix and dark phoenix team.
Honestly you can deal with Phoenix/Dark Phoenix as ammy. Don’t really need to snapback with her in the team. One of the few characters who can control the bitch.
any air TK Shot is a free shuffle. Once they realize that, just annoy them with slowdown and go in.
Pick Dante, do a special move that puts projectiles on the screen while he can still move around after…teleport.
Or just wait for Ultimate where even Captain America will be able to kill Phoenix on a snap back.
This is the 2nd time someone has referred to Captain America in Ultimate to me today, did I miss some significant buff of his or something? Or are you just making a comment on an increased killability of Jean herself?
I just mentioned Captain America because he can’t really do much to stop a snapped in Phoenix from air dashing up back and going for 3 salty balls.
Captain America got a bunch of buffs though. Backflip/cartwheel is now confirmed to be at least projectile invincible at some point or maybe all the way throughout, L shield slash OTG’s, double jump, M and H charging stars cause soft knockdown now (which is crazy cuz they already start up in 5 frames),