Mainly against T.Hawk and Zangief, I can’t seem to do anything. Zangief’s jump is awkward to AA with Cr. HP, and trying to meaty light punch after knockdown is like asking to get SPD’d. Rushing at them with anything other than a properly spaced straight seems suicidal too so I end up just trying to poke away with heavy punches. T.Hawk is a little easier to manage 'cuz his jump feels slower and I can anti-air it. I see PR Balrog just landing straight’s and backing off, or just heavy punching from far away. Is this really what I have to do? Play the ultra patient game, knock them down a thousand times and whittle their hp from far, far away?
This is the story for most charge characters against Hawk and Gief (unless your Blanka or have a projectile like Chun). Against Gief if you find you’re at an awkward angle to anti-air or just can’t do it in time, then hastily use a focus attack to absorb the hit and backdash.
A lof of Giefs are going to try and throw out lariat if they predict an incoming dash punch, a normal or if they think they can safely build meter. Once they get a knockdown, then they can apply their mixups. All Balrog can really do is whittle down Gief’s health with pokes (st.HP, st.HK, sweep, max distance dash straight), punish failed lariat attempts (using ultra, super, normals, specials) and punish failed SPD attempts (same as lariat punishes). Make sure you can differentiate a normal lariat from a quick lariat. Also, you may have seen PR Balrog use cr.HP xx Super if lariat is blocked up close.
There should be a number of PR Balrog’s matches against Vangief and Snake Eyez from LanHammer, up on Youtube. So take a look at them. Keno also played against Snake Eyez at the most recent WNF. If it’s not already on Youtube, I might try and get it up just for convenience.
As for Hawk, I haven’t really seen much Balrog vs Hawk. I think Hawk poses a different problem mainly because of his Condor Dive. If it’s done badly and you block, he’ll bounce off you and Balrog has a free punish with Ultra or just about anything. If it’s timed well, he can hit you at the feet I think, not cause a rebound animation and then land an SPD. There’s also the whiffed Condor Dives into SPD as well I guess. I think Condor Spire is like a bad version of Gief’s green hand. I’m not sure what the frame data of Spire is on block though.
All Gief’s moves are vulnerable to throw on startup, so properly timed meaty throw will beat anything he does - Lariat, all versions of 360, all greenhands - Super and Ultra 1 is one frame so it always wins if you’re throwable atm. Also watch out for backdash SPD. Total throw frames are 25 F for each char on whiff. Both Gief’s and T. Hawk’s backdashes are 26 frames total so they can never punish anything but late throw with SPD (2 frames > 26+2=28F) /Super or Ultra (1 Frame > 26+1=27), but if they catch you unprepared you’ll eat some 360 damage. There is way around throws for Gief though, although I’ve not seen it online yet > hold up and cancel prejump frames (throw invincible) into lariat, … > loses to meaties though.
With T. Hawk is a bit different story. His MP (+EX) Tomahawk Buster is throw invincible from frame 1, so meaty throw is more of a risk [other reversals aside from Super/Ultra gets grabbed]
Other than that -> Condor dives always go in recoil on block no matter how deep you land it and punishing it should be always possible, if not very easy for Rog. Note that the normal version does not even need to be blocked standing. You must block the EX version high though, and if T. Hawk player hits your lower body (area under knees), there’s no recoil animation, he lands right next to you and he’s completely safe ( and you’re not ).
Both version can cross you up so watch out for that, although the recoil goes right next to you afterwards and he’s open to punish of choice (keep in mind you’re gonna lose back [+down in case of EX] charge though)
Condor Spire has got a lot of active frames [9F Light, 10F Medium, 11F Hard version] so it can be anywhere between horribly unsafe to completely safe depending on spacing and timing. EX is safe always but on point blank use and then it’s still one frame punish [-3 Frames > one frame punish with cr. Jab/Throw].
Math homework:
T. Hawk can get following
-at worst (point blank & not meaty):
Light ver. > -7 block /-5 hit > free punish on choice / easy punish
Med. ver. > -8 block /-6 hit > free punish on choice / very easy punish
Hard ver. > -10block/-8 hit > free punish of choice
EX ver. > -3 block/ Knockdown > one frame punish with cr. Jab or Throw
-at best (far away &/or (perfect) meaty)
Light ver. > +2 block /+4 hit> perfect SPD timing / hard link into Jab combo
Med. ver. > +2 block /+4 hit> perfect SPD timing / hard link into Jab combo
Hard ver. > +1 block /+3 hit> advantageous situation
EX ver. > +6 block / Knockdown > easy true block-string into light attacks / Juggle potential
Edit: Typos
EDIT 2: IMPORTANT, read my following post
Pray.
Zangief is easily the most explored matchup. In my opinion…your goal is to time Zangief out. Seriously, make your goal to time him out and you become totally OK with checking his walk with cr.hk for 99s. When I play Snake Eyes, or played Jan (here in Houston), that goal won me the matches. These are old but i think the concepts are still very valid and useful:
(my match with Jan’s Gief starts @10:42)
(read the description for notes)
(the obvious plug)
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/151273?threads/the-art-of-punishing.151273/
I play the ultra patient game myself, standing HPs and HKs. But its not a fun fight.
Also remember that you can punish Ex Green Hand on block with ultra(kicks) clean (It’s -9 I believe)
@3nigmat1c
I hereby demote you to lab assistant with that zangief match. Why didnt you just wait it out or do ultra at 3 seconds mark, Damn YOU
Well here’s some videos if you haven’t seem them already.
Keno against Snake Eyez in the most recent WNF event.
PR Balrog vs Snake Eyez in Top 16 @ Lanhammer 2013
PR Balrog vs Vangief in Top 8 @ Lanhammer 2013
PR Balrog vs Snake Eyez in Top 8 @ Lanhammer 2013
Even though it seems weird to me, I guess I need to correct my statement:
From the Wiki:
*Characters cannot be thrown for 2 frames when they are eligible to perform a Reversal. This means meaty throws will whiff, and certain tick grabs will whiff even though you are in range and the opponent has already left blockstun. It also means you will never be able to throw reversal moves that start up in 2 frames or less (Zangief Spinning Pile Driver).
*
This means, that you can’t really throw Gief out of Reversal NORMAL 360.
If I’m correct, EX 360 is 3 frames so you can throw him out of it, unlike the normal version, not with a perfect meaty throw though (with perfect meaty, you can’t throw anything at all, because it has 2 active frames, which is just as much as the throw invincibility on wakeup. This means, ideal meaty throw is setting it up 2 frames meaty instead of full 3 frames of it’s startup.
Same goes for T Hawk’s SPD. So, the wakeup throw is not as safe as I though. I’ve had a lot of sucess using it regardless, with any character. It’s especially usefull if they are mashing Lariat on wakeup. If they realize it doesn’t work, go for meaty normals to beat out SPD and backdashes. Once again, sorry for my mistake.
Note that neutral (non-reversal) SPD’s are all still very vulnerable to throws.