What REALLY constitutes tiers?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
81

Jesus, even with what you added, you still haven’t given enough examples to justify how that contributes to balance (and for christ’s sake, I know that alone isn’t why you think it’s balanced, you don’t need to beat a dead horse). I still think there are differences even within the similarities. It’s NOT in the act of GCs, but the circumstances that follow once all the gaurd canceling is done with. You say I lack “game knowledge,” but you clearly have a hard time understanding what I’m talking about because you haven’t addressed that at all. You go on describing the functions of a GC, but not the differences in combos that the characters can do or what could happen when each combo is finished. It’s brain-dead simple. When outcomes like that open up more options, it’s decided purely on the CHARACTERS. Everybody knows this because it happens to be that way with EVERY OTHER GAME.

If you need a better illustration, look at GCFS in SvC and see what that does to balance. Same concept, more bullshit. If you still don’t see it, then I don’t know what to say to you but brush up on your English.

And last I checked this game didn’t have a strong competitive scene to be worth talking about. Who are you to say how balanced it is when nobody in Japan or the US plays it like it’s worth a damn? I know people that have verified this first-hand. KOF’s the pinnacle focus for SNK games, the only exceptions being SS5 or Tenka even.

82

I don’t believe the game engine is entirely at fault here, it’s not like the game engine knew that T4Jin had a 20-Window Frame Parry, or that he had a 16-Mid frame good tracking JFLS launcher that could deal out 60% and would connect either on hit or counterhit.

The game engine works best with the character who has the best tools within that respective game. To me, T4Jin already had so mcuh priority, so he would obviously be able to utilize the T4 game engine to his advantage the most out of any character within the game.

I will however agree with the fact that, the game engine can however benefit some characters moreso than others. Like Bryan for example, he had solid block stun attacks since…what…forever, and with the new crush system(I hate the crush system btw) built in for T5 this only benefits him, and he’s been consistant from 5.0, 5.1 to DR. To me, he’s a character that greatly benefited with the new added system into T5.

Meh, just my thoughts, and I will always say that Tier’s are real, when you’ve played some of these games for over a close to a decade, a decade, or over a decade old, I’m pretty sure we’ve done what we can to find out who’s good and who isn’t. I mean games like SF2:CE/HF/ST, MvC2, 3S, TTT etc, etc have been around long enough for us to pretty much say there isn’t any “secrets” left to hide. To me, the only ones that could still have “theory” fighting are the newer fighting games that are less than a year old.

Anyways, wether you agree or disagree with me, it’s up to you peeps, I’ve posted up my opinion and I’m done.

  • Peace -
83

I can’t speak for Yuri and King, but that’s the only problem that people cite when talking about Nakoruru. It’s not enough to hinder her performance because she still controls space better than almost anyone else. She’s got frame advantage, priority, walking speed, a high jump and safe mixups to show for it. She can RC bird hop too if you want to be a real dick with her.

Cammy and A-Sak suffer from low vitality/damage too, but they’ve got enough bullshit to offset that.

84

The top tier is all of the characters that an expert player that is playing to win should consider picking when using double-blind character selection. The next tier is all of the characters that an expert player should consider if he is not allowed to select from the top tier characters, and so on.

85

lol seriously it seems retard to me to go on with this discussion…

but i don’t have anything else to do…so let’s go

first of all i told you that you lack game knowledge

you gave birth to this…

i already told you what can happen after a GC here:

and here:

the come in again the lack of knowledge thing…

MOTW guard cancel can’t start with a basic blow

but only cancelling the just defend animation with a SPECIAL or DESPERATION move
this is also well assisted due to high buffering time…you can do a 720 with tizoc wait some frames input back to just defend then hit C to land his big fall sdm

even with brakeable moves (please before posting again check around to see what is a brake in motw) the best thing you can do is GC into brakeable, brake, followup, DM

and, AGAIN, everyone in the game can do this

no other crap no particular mixup aside some exceptions (very rare)
later come out the feint dash cancel thing but i still didn’t see any match showing this in action in an overwhelming ownage
for now i saw it only for pressing purpose/guard crush

and OMG almost everyone have a nightmare pressing that leads to guard crush (maybe terry is the best at this followed by kevin but i told that motw still have tiers)

the universal dodge i told before can be used by everyone in the same way

downAB, feint, strong, special/dm

i have to repeat that every chara in the game can do the same thing?

i dunno your sources…but you say bullshit
competitive scene?
ever you heard of howard arena?haraheriwolves?

please shut up if you don’t know

kof is the pinnacle but it’s far to be a well balanced game especially with motw out
kof is better than garou due to other things

motw born and died in 2000
in that year kof2k is crap (versus wise)
then i can’t remember what came out…maybe gekka or samurai 4-5 i dunno but those are minor games
kof2001 is a cyrcus
kof2002 is the first ok game after motw

snk’s balanced game chart:

  1. garou motw

  2. kof98

  3. kof2002 some RB samurai zero

86

can we all agree thats tiers are impossible to make because of the vast amount of fluctuating variables(skill,effeciency,style,consistancy,emotional state,ect) that make it nothing more than a educated guess.

87

See there is the problem.SNK and capcom know they can’t both balence a game and have variaty at the same time(extremely hard and would take years to beta test and balence). Capcom like other fighting game developers know that a balenced game won’t sell to joe noob as well as a broken spam fest with some gimmick to trick them into thinking the game has depth. See unbalenced games are fun because most of the time they have more variety.Can’t have your cake and eat it.

So Capcom shift most of thier balencing efforts to thier “story-line centric” characters.Everyone else is an afterthought.They are either broken good(god tier) or broken bad(bottom look at roll from marvel).

88

You see, that’s part of what I was trying to say. As along as there’s variety in characters, it doesn’t matter how much of the universal stuff they share because even then they all have different characteristics no matter what. And all the while, I’m hearing complaints about stuff like Rock being an unplayable character. Some would contend that that he’s mid-tier status, but again, I wouldn’t know because there are too many things you have to look into to determine how good he is.

I could go on and on, but it’s clear we’re not getting through to each other. I’m always open to learning new things, but when jackasses like you come along and start flaming people BECAUSE of their ignorance, there’s no room for any decent conversation.

If you want to correct somebody, show some fucking manners.

89

I beleive the balencing mechanisms in games benefit 2 types of characters. Combos and single-hit high damage dealers. Why because they can deal large a mounts of damage if they guess right. But agianst another character that guesses right but only gets chippy damage then which person has the advantage? We all know that at high level most people play great defense and rarely have a lapse. So when you do get a rare hit in do you want to do big damage or chippy damage? Parry is good but it has some bad points(Hugo and any large single-hit damagers get ALOT better offensively if they can parry into supers and specials.)Any combo based character gets an advantage because even without meter they can do good damage and with meter they deal big damage.Give the comboer or single-hit damager some servicable pokes and look at them own people.(The Hugo vids by Hauyo(sp?) does alot of pokes to setup up his offense just like a chun pokes to setup hers). Parry benefits them. Everyone else just doesn’t get as a good options from it. If Capcom can find a way to make the lesser damage dealers practical then we’ll see more variety without brokenness.

Surprizingly SSBM answered some problems with games balences like…

*clank when 2 hitboxes hit each other with the more powerful attack getting frame advantage.

*alot of the sword guys have more priority than everyone else because the sword is an object and not apart of the characters self-hitbox.

*nerfing fireballs priority(you can destroy them) but if you get predictable they will SHFFL fair your ass for free.

*powershield is better than parry. Why? Because its harder to do(3 frame window 3S has a 8 frame window) for the amount of “freeness” you get afterward. Doesn’t cancels the attack but nullifies all blockstun and you recieve no damage to your shield(copied from A3 no less). It also reflects projectiles.

Still even that games had the old “priority=hitbox size/range” problem. Pichu was the quickness character in the game.Why does everyone suck with him and rate him low? Because all of his attacks get beat at about an inch from him.Answer to this problem is…duh duh duh! get close shield grab them and rush them down! Wow! what a concept!

Capcom just needs to make the non-face characters and expansion characters better. Why make a rehaul of ryu just copy his 3S version and refine him for practicality. I don’t believe sean is the worst character though.(too many big damage combos and maybe an extremely hard to do infinite. Does the combo lp,(mp)DS,Shin shoryuken,BB,dash under crFP,fpDS,SS,BB,crFP,fpDS dizzy)

90

uhm…yes i can be a jackass…and you showed some ignorance…but there’s a line between blind ignorance and in understanding what someone tried to say 3 times
in fact for the first 2 times i told you to re read my post…but it’s ok no hard feeling man we’re discussing about videogames no point in getting angry for this…

you’re right here…but let me add one thing…
capcom and snk and whatever fgt game developer have to at least avoid obvious unbalances…
example ken in third strike…ok i’m not so fond of the game but i can easily see that ken have a good advantage with his shippu…
fast to come out, can punish everything and you have a very little gauge bar that can be charged with whiffed moves plus him can have up to 3 of them plus his exed moves are powerful
this is what i call a boost in unbalancing

or gato in kofXI, damm in a so fast engine you give him something more in mobility (he can travel coast to coast in few frames) a zero starting frame dm that can punish even god and can’t be punished (maybe someone till now i can punish him only with ash) and some dream cancel combo where damage is scaled bad compared to others…a juggle anywhere move and so on…

those things are obvious when you look at them…imho they should try to avoid…then we can’t have a 100% balanced game but soemthing with no cheapness

91

Yeah there are some recurring problems that need to be fixed…

Range/hitbox size=priority… so what if you play a small/short ranged character?

not giving slower characters to tools they need to setup thier offense.(They quasi-fixed this with hulk on MvC with the hit buffers and priority and zangief with his lightning quick+invincibility super grabs. I think with hugo they took it a bit further. He has the extremely quick grab supers+invincibility+ good pokes with nice block stun setups.Parry also add more options to hugo.)

poking characters(elena,twelve,) have to be given tools to help agianst matchups with invincibility frames(SHK). Why take all the safety away from a poker? Make the tips(mid on to the tip of his hand) an object with the tip taking the most damage(kind of like Marth in SSBM).Make is air hangtime VERY high(think ST dhalsim but a slightly more).Give him some invincibility near the beginning of his air dash and make it faster(jump cancel into fly).Give him a strider-like wall cling(cannot attack while on the wall).Make the nose of his dive an object. Give him a few feints and make his Needle SA absorb 1/2 hp tooken from it. Remove the shadow from his invisable taunt instead make dust kick up when he moves or jumps/comes down from the air.If he stays still he is undetectable/extremely hard to parry.No dust is kicked up while on the wall.Keep his stats the same. His run away/guessing games win be sick.

My point is make a character’s style practical by giving them tools to support that style. Stop making combo clones/quasi-combo clones and start to make more unique/fresh characters with tools they need to support their play style. There are ways to make any characters competitive if you give them the tools to succeed at a high level. No gimmicky impractical bullshat.

92

Capcom is really shit about balancing characters. They usually overdo it.