I think that assumption could be used when a game is new, because there hasn’t been a lot of time, so people have just found out initially what works for them, but I don’t think popularity alone can make a character become a top tier character for a decade or so.
thats true…gotta take into consideration, the “unknown factor” I get it sometimes when I play 3s in arcades because I use Elena (I don’t know what tier she’s in, and I’m well aware Chun beasts her…but she feels right and is fun for me) and most don’t fight humans that use her…so I get a few wins that way…but then they catch on…
That may be true for top-tiers, but for lower tiers, not really. Despite the flaws they have, tiers are still influential in character selection, which creates bias that leaves little room to explore every aspect of a game.
Then again, it’s partly rooted in a player’s perspective, in which learning curve often becomes a smokescreen that makes a character’s potential harder to realize. This is evident in the common urge to compare a character’s traits directly to the top-tiers, usually in terms of damage output/intake and what that character DOESN’T have that’s known to make top-tiers good.
The engines for each game dictate which character(s) can be effective.
In a game like marvel where some characters are given MANY more options than the rest, you’ll see huge gaps between the top 10 and the rest of the cast.
In a game like guilty gear, the engine is designed with all of the characters in mind, the gap isn’t that large because everyone is airdashing all over the place. Characters like potemkin were designed to still be able to compete vs the super mobility of the other guys.
Consider the most effective tools that the top tier in marvel has, then list how many other characters have options that compare. It’s the stupid game engine that screws over ryu and other bums.
No, the engine has nothing to do with it, the best characters were simply given more tools, either intentionally or unintentionally. The “engine” really isn’t what’s wrong with it. Guilty Gear had characters with much more bullshit (#R Eddie, XX Slayer) but it was more refined over time and the bullshit gap is much smaller.
When Capcom made a character with a 1f startup super that reaches the entire screen, and is in many ways comparable to other mediocre characters WITHOUT that one key bullshit ability, that’s not “the engine”, that’s just retarded. Many of the Marvel characters are simply good, they weren’t balanced in some grand design scheme, comparitive to the other character team combinations, that would have been goddamned impossible. Capcom intentionally, in many ways, made Marvel have shitty balance, as far as I can see. Ryu could have been good, it would have made him little like Ryu is normally, but hey, he could have been.
point- Overworld
Also, I think Henaki is mostly right about the engine having little to do with it. The characters are built around the engine- the way the developers wanted the game to play. Still, a system can make an otherwise weak character strong through exploiting that system and the character imbalance together. Remember Sean in 2nd Impact?
I shouldn’t have included gg in my reference considering i know so little about it.
A characters option tree is usually based from what they’re able to do based on manipulating the game engine in their favor.
sj properties:certain characters having many options during this crucial positioning tool. Storms ability to do damage from all angles and her versatility here is high up on the list as to why she is the best overall character. If ryu were given a hurricane kick that shot towards the opponent and could then be cancelled into a super for damage, it might not be so lopsided when he tries to compete at sj height. The positions that top tiers take to maintain advantage are usually simply going to an area where they have the edge in priority. If sj height weren’t part of the engine, the whorish tactics you see with storm wouldn’t be possible. Her lk counter hits, her retarded Lighting strike priority, her air super links from it, her ability to run away and above where her fp has most priority(all the way off the screen) and then land and dominate by burning bar…
guard break properties: ryu having no real way to guard break the opponent mid-regular jump, magneto by contrast using his airdash+attacks to break the guard of somone when they’re simply trying to get away from him with a jump back. some characters simply aren’t able to take advantage of dominant tactics that airdashes afford.
I’m looking forward for some more input on the subject.
I’ve been thinking about FMJaguar’s assertion that tiers can’t be constructed from just one fraction of information. In a way he’s right, but then everyone agrees that inherent strengths are most important since they’re already present in a game. The rest of the options up there are simply reflections of what’s found or what’s assumed to be true, but are nevertheless ways of figuring out what they are. That’s how we all SHOULD think the process works, but does it?
But on the subject of MvC2, well, the system does affect tiers significantly. In previous games, Mag, Storm and Sent weren’t always so dominating as most characters were able to keep up with them then. XvSF was as close to being perfectly balanced as any Marvel game could get, mostly due to the fact every character had an infinite that made the game a matter of finding the right openings in order to win (or so I heard). This actually remains somewhat true in MvC2, but one could argue that it’s made possible from the right team combinations and assists.
There’s also the fact that it was a priority for Capcom to design the Marvel characters so they stay faithful to their comic book incarnations. They didn’t quite do this with MSH as Wolverine and Spiderman were top-tier. They shouldn’t be, but Marvel did encourage them to make them that good so the game would sell more, and it doesn’t surprise me given how annoyingly popular those two are. With MvC2 however, the top-tiers are Cable, Sent, Mag and Storm. The last two especially because they’re superior at regulating their movements anywhere at anytime due to flight, and the aforementioned sj abuse, and Cable and Sent because they single-handedly decimate entire life-bars with very easy setups for consecutive supers.
A good theory is that Thanos would fit right into the semi top-tier if he retained his Mind super and long-reaching normals from MSH. God knows how much that would benefit much of the cast, but it’s too powerful on paper. And going by beta reports, Shuma was allegedly a potential top-tier until Capcom weakened him. Maybe that was a mistake on their part, because his initial design from the beginning NEVER allowed him to get away with so much in the system like the top 4.
In the end, it’s safer to conclude that MvC2’s tiers are almost completely governed by WHO they are as opposed to other games. No other characters can fly (at least not as good as they can) or quickly fill the entire screen with crap from anywhere, ground or air, with minimal risk. For every other character to stand on that level, they need proper assists that allow them to follow through with otherwise inescapable traps, infinites and so forth.
Tiers ARE “theory fighter”.Why because a lot of the factors are fuzzy and fluctuate.To make a tier(who’s the best character compared to the rest of the characters in the game.) You need to know…
1)All the advantages a character has(which is quasi-impossible because it takes years with thousands of people playing them competitively
to uncover little the properties in both priority at certain angles ect.If a move loses to 99% of the attacks in the game but beats one of the best attacks 100% clean, is it not useful but situational?What if a move beats 99% of the moves in the game but gets beat so badly (say a normal grab) by the 1% it makes this move damn near useless and impractical.Both are situational now. Which is one is better? We can say both are extremely useful if used in their proper time and placement.
2)If both people are the same skill. Its impossible to measure skill. So if Daigo picks Ken where do you draw the line between skill and character? How do you know that Ken is high tier? For all you know the skilled people playing ken the right way over a long period of time were just better with ken. Skill is NOT transplantable. If you are good with your main you are not going to be as good with the rest of the cast as you are with your main. You have to learn what that character can do (See Point #1) and can’t do per match-up. Then certain things are like “Very hard yet possible” things that require skill and practice.skill is the ability to perform challenging tasks correctly,efficiently (fast and complex)and consistently .If Ken has a Auto-kill(infinite) then yeah he is better than everyone who doesn’t have a infinite.The old “Gun vs. pocket knife” argument.If you can use a extremely hard to aim gun then you’ll have a auto-kill against any person with a knife.But if you don’t the knife person will shank your ass like OZ season 3.
3)Consistency - Do people play at their highest level all the time. no. Can we quantize play level.No.See even personal “opinion” is “theory fighter”.We are not machines we have things like stress,mental suggestion(probably one of the most powerful),memory error,random input errors,emotion(or lack there of),pride etc that effect our consistency.
4)Match-ups-Do all top tiers beat all the characters lower than them? No.There are bad match-ups(aka they are very good at exploiting your weaknesses and/or have options that negate your strengths.)
Twelve is completely beat by elena.(range=priority=elena beats most of twelves moves)Hugo if played right can beat a chun or ken(sorry its true watch some Youtube vids. I am not saying all the kens are good or all the chuns are good but if the tiers are even remotely accurate, which I doubt, this stuff should not be happening).
5)Probability-If 60% of the people entering tournaments pick high tiers and 25% pick mid-upper/mid tiers with only 4%(being generous) of the competition picking low-mid/low tiers and 1%(being generous) picking bottom tiers. Who statistically is going to win more. The population using high tiers or the population picking bottom tiers.If people base their knowledge of characters on tournaments does it seem a little biased? Of course the ken chun and yun going to win if 60% of the competition plays them. Its a numbers game.Then scrubs just pick what they think will give them the best completive advantage.Its a cycle that keeps the top on top and the low down low.Doesn’t matter if they have untapped potential if no one plays them seriously to find and refine it.
6)Data-All the data from the engine,frame data,hit-boxes,properties,character attributes(Action Replay Game-shark can get this) and a simulator(does not exist) to test out every angle at every point in the attack frames of all the attacks in the game.
7)Styles-not everyone plays the same style. Not all characters can be played in the same fashion and be successful.some characters that are good are hard to play with but when you play then right the way they are supposed to play then they are good. Some bad characters CANNOT be played any way other than the right way but then they are at least decent.
8)Quitters/fakers/biased scrubs…You have some people that play characters and lose but instead of getting better or play them the right way(imitate high level play) they give up and pick another character and then scream the company line.less and less people play them. Less and less development of the low tiers meta game compared to tops. Pretty much like #7 but they quit.If hardly any people play a character at high level play THEIR OVERALL STRATS AND KNOWLEDGE WILL NOT BE AS ADVANCED AS A CHARACTER THAT DOES GET PLAY AT A HIGH LEVEL.High level teaches the scrubs to play at a high level.What happens when there is no high level for a character?
But if you want to make a tier you have to know what is good…personally I think Versatility(options both offensive and defense,setups,ect) Damage potential(the amount of damage a character can do with and without meter)Ease of use(to a lesser extent. If a character are better than everyone but is so hard to use it makes it impossible for a human to utilize at full potential without errors then they will not be as good in real world situations) and Safety(Vitality frame advantage quickness etc).
A real “tier” is impossible to make. Tiers are in themselves “theory fighter” because a lot of what makes something good is subjective(think how scientist prove things with equations and formulas)and not everything is known yet.Too many fuzzy constantly fluctuating variables to make a accurate “tier”.
when i compare 2 tiers usually i take a look at:
- mixup options
- damage
- priorities over his moveset
- matchups
- how the engine help them
for 1 you can simply count how much are their options compared to each other, if both have high/low or 50/50 game, crossup chance and how effective is, mobility and speed
2 not so much to say it’s clear but damage can’t be everything…if a chara can kill u with a single blow, first of all you have to see if that blow can be landed
3 it’s a matter of frames…i think this can be seen only by hardcore theory but at low levels you can easily see if a blow wins over another
4 you can draw your tab with the 5/5 matchup thing
5 nowadays this can count a lot…in high speed game engines (kofxi) who have great mobility can have a nice boost the same apply if the game have a slow engine and the chara is fast (chris in kof98)
btw a balanced game imho is a game that have the same things for each chara…a better example canbe garou MOTW arguably one of the most balanced game out…
everyone have just defend and the same identical way to guard cancel, everyone have a qcf/hcf move to guard cancel, everyone have downAB dodge and uoh, the run hit and faint thing (feint dash) and so on
kof98 can be another great example…everyone have high/low mixups similar way to combo (strong command special ftw) and damage for the most of b&bs is the same (or almost) for everyone
I don’t know a whole lot about MOTW, but I question the validity of it being balanced. Just because universal features are shared amongst every character doesn’t make them closer to being equal. Gaurd cancels have properties that pertain specifically to each character, as with all other things like the speed of a run, the duration and invincibility of a roll in KOF/CvS2, etc. And while JDs are effective, they don’t benefit everyone the same way beyond just neutralizing a hit and restoring health. It’s identical to SF3’s parrying in that some gain more opportunities from the joystick input than others.
i repeat myself, in motw everyone have the same identical way to react and guard cancel no matter what you just defend no matter who you just defend…(and imho this is the Just defend>>>>parry)
once your chara flashes you have at least one option to each opponent
as i said before (and you didn’t read i guess) everyone have a qcf/hcf/qcb/hcb/dp/rdp move to do an easy guard cancel
just take a look at some movelists…
btw i didn’t said that motw is balanced ONLY because of this
put into your mind thatbalanced game doesn’t exist tiers are everywhere (even in non fighting games) the only thing you can do is discuss how far they are between each other
as I was saying in my either post making a tier and calling it fact is fallacy.Why? because there are alot of things we can not measure/know.So tiers=theory/educated opinion
Hence the reason I said some characters have more options than others. Seriously, anything can be done after a JD. The differences lie in the follow ups that can occure from the reaction you make with your character.
I read just fine. I’ve already admitted once that I know little about the game, but going by what you’re saying, those gaurd cancels are similar to the GC moves in Vampire Savior. If that’s true, then what I’m telling you is that not every gaurd cancel operates the same exact way, even though the commands are the same; ie, animations are different, knockdown distance/height is different, etc, thereby affecting the number of follow-ups your character can make afterward. They’re different as long as the characters are different.
Everybody knows there isn’t a perfectly balanced game out there. What I was getting across is that sharing one or more of the same tactics doesn’t help balance a game out. And from what I can recall, serious SNK players consider the game far from balanced.
Exactly. I’ve been thinking the problem lies in our nature to compare things constantly to one another in addition to sphere of influence. It’s useful for many situations, but if there’s one thing that shows how self-condemning it is, it’s certainly video games with countless variables to be favored only in few.
thank you.
no point in discussing this…you lack game knowledge…
what i said is that having ONE option after a jd is enough to deal with everyone without particular problems
i dunno about VS but in motw guard cancel works:
you just defend (hope i don’t have to explain this)
your character flash yellow and change guard stance
during that flash you can input or buffer something that will resul in a guard cancel
this will give you some invincible frames (very very few 1-2-3 not more) and you hit your opponent between his strings
the easiest followup to ALL of guard cancels are combo that ends in DM/SDM i’ve already told that everyone in that game can do the same
this is really arguable…but again…i didn’t said that only this balance the entire game…but helps
a more stupid example will be having 2 charas one with a dm the other without…only by this you can assume that one of the two have an advantage
another balance helper (in kof) is the tag/team system…playing with that you can balance a matchup in various way
plus the fact that balancing a game with 40+ charas is a nightmare
seriously you don’t know anything regarding motw…please quit
I think forget about tiers all together.
How about we make a detailed match-up tier.
This is made by experienced experts of that character. It shows what to do and what not to do against a given match-up.Shows some things that work and what angles and what doesn’t and what play style works and what play style is just a waste of finger movement.
Now a match-up tier would be better for scrubs that want to get good with a character thats not popular/top/well documented. Then there will be no excuses why they lose. Nope wasn’t the match-up bud it was your bad play.
Tiers do more hard than good.
serious discussion are dead…the best thing you can read nowadays is after 100 pages about a new game ppl still asking for movesets…
but thanx your post make me feel that something is still alive
I’m not getting involved in this thread, but…
Regarding Nakoruru, she got nerfed in generally the same way Yuri and King got nerfed, indirectly. The ratio system combined with zonked-down vitality/damage and lessened power/speed on a few moves turned them from annoying powerhouses to not worth one’s time. That’s really all.
I’m listing a couple of examples from various games
In tekken, tech catches dominated in 5.0, thats a basic engine issue that allowed certain characters to dominate with oki for free.
Positive frames, if it weren’t for certain characters in tekken having frame advantage after moves, the mix-ups wouldn’t be there. Imagine nina from 5.0 but rob all her in close + frames. This is basic shit, but thats where the developers tend to fuck up.
in alpha3, guardcrushes during v-ism blockstrings were based off of how many times you could block different moves before you got crushed, akuma flies away with manipulating this very basic part of the game engine and beasts on everyone.
in marvel, guardbreaks and glitches to the engine basically make up the gameplay.
3s, kara-srk, kara-throw, the length of time that a character has to cancel a normal into a super(without this lengthy period to cancel into super with hit confirm, alot of characters would be weakened)
With that said, if you were to look at each of the games from the ground up, you’ll see that each characters is always given something to compete with.
HOWEVER
The usefulness/cheapness of the different moves that they’re given is always goverened by the basic speed of moves, the characters follow-up options, and how the hitboxes hit.
This is a pretty ghetto explanation, i haven’t read all the posts so if i’m being redundant, fuck it.