Thanks for the inputs. I may have expressed myself poorly, it’s the combination of factors like, long input buffer, the reversal window, absolute guard etc. that together creates something that bothers me. Whenever I want to go back to ST to play a few matches I have to take some time to practice reversals, I had to learn how to piano to use it more consistently (there was a lot of Balrogs and Blankas here). Honestly, there’s not a single thing in certain games like ST that I don’t consider it a feat of skill from the other player, I never truly thought the same for IV. And no, I’ve not only played IV, been here a long time. xP
I didn’t really give that thought, but when I dreamt in my heart of hearts in that post I imagined Rufus didn’t exist. I guess elf either now that I think about it… I just feel it’s just a handicap on the combo system that was introduced as an artificial skill barrier, and–as you bring up–a way to limit certain characters at the expense of others.
It’s always a combination of several rules. It’s never one rule in a vacuum. But yeah I know what you mean. 
Things I like:
Matchups
No parries
Emphasis on ground game
Diverse playstyles (good mixture of offensive and defensive characters)
Best Roster ever in a SF game (this can’t really be disputed)
Great online netcode
Things I hate:
Low damage (making doing dumb things less risky)
Non-SF characters (Viper and Fuete comes to mind)
Focus attacks
Generally mashing is a better option than blocking
Some hitboxes are floaty
Too many anti zoning tactics
Charge characters aren't that great in this game.
Overall SFIV is a decent series, and I have minor complaints. My biggest complain is the low damage output in the game. But I can see why it’s that way, if only to entire newer players to play it more. I don’t think DP mashing is that big of a deal, since they’re more than baitable, and this issue can pretty much become a non issue when you learn your one frame links. I also don’t think backdashing is all that great either. Anyone can option select them pretty well and easiy (OS sweep is pretty simple to learn).
My real issue is focus attacks. Sometimes when you really are destroying someone on the ground, they will start just spazing out with focus attacks and fishing with them. I find that they’re too hard to punish without taking big risk (most focus breakers aren’t that safe). In really hate this mechanic, and it really does punish footsies (what this game should be about). I really do hate characters like Viper and Fuete, who are clearly playing a different game entirely. It’s hard to keep them grounded.
Lastly, I hate the fact no one blocks in this game. Almost everyone in this game gets up pressing buttons. The very fact that this seems like a good options kind of makes the game dumb. Sure you can punish this stuff, but it is really annoying.
Due to all of the wakeup stuff you can do in this game, it make lockdowns a little cumbersome. But keep in mind, you have to apply unique pressure each time, which means that you can't just go into autopilot when you have someone in the corner. To me this makes the game a little smarter because you have to think about your pressure, and leave gaps for bait while maintaining your position. I think a lot of people want kind of mindless pressure and block strings where they don't have to respect someone's wakeup. A lot of times, SFIV is about making people beat themselves, and you don't get any smarter than that. In a lot of cases people need to block and anticipate a throw. But often times they crouch tech, or mash buttons leaving them open to counter hit setups. Again, that's someone who is beating themselves. at the same time, a throw, or a sweep can lead to oki situations, where many characters have true 50/50, or safejumps. I wish this game more zoning more potent, but then again, in ST I could just mindlessly throw sonic booms, and in this game I incorporate pokes and baits in my sonic boom pressure. I think the spacing part is interesting, but I can understand that doesn't attract a lot of people to the game.Blocking is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than not blocking in SF4.
Yeah, plenty of players would rather wiggle the stick and smack buttons, instead of blocking, but blocking is still the better option in most cases.
Which brings up SF4’s worst quality… the players.
You can see it in this thread. So many of the players have no fucking idea what they’re talking about, and so many players think dumb shit is a good idea… the SF4 player base knows less about their game, than almost any other contingency. It’s to be expected from such a HUGE game, and it’s not SF4’s fault on its own, but it is an issue when playing.
You have to wade through so much trash, to get to the good. It’s frustrating. I found SF4 to get better and better as time went on (until they killed Yang, and I decided to just play KOF), and I think that had a LOT to do with the fact that the players became less of a chore to play against, as time went on.
Even still though, SF4 players know less about SF4, than any other community knows about their game, just on the average level.
It’s slow.
Mostly boils down to 1st knock down wins.
Universally poor/skewed wake up mechanics.
The Viper/Seth/Fuerte “random” character archetype makes for an unpleasant experience for most coming from more methodic classic games.
90% of the cast build offence on Jump in, cr.Jab, cr.Jab, cr.Jab/Throw etc.
I agree that blocking is the best options. Because not blocking means you eat an option select which can lead to a hard knockdown sweep, or worse a full raw OS ultra. It’s still, IMHO what puts Japan above us in this game. Japan players pretty much kill all of SSFIV non blocking defense with their superior knowledge of option selecting. The issue I have with the player base is that very few players can handle pressure. This goes back to my post, in SSFIV, in most cases you force your opponent to beat themselves. In this game, people HATE to be pressured, and it’s not uncommon to see wakeup DPs, jabs, and all sorts of other stuff out of pressure. About 90% of the playerbase on XBL and PSN never blocks.
I personally think if this game evolves, unblockables will becomes the potent thing in this game, but the whole non blocking demographic is going to take a long time to die down. Blocking isn’t something every top player is aware of either. You still see top US players get option selected because they backdash, or counter hit because they mash jab in the middle of block string pressure. That is kind of what’s keeping Japan on top.
Yup,
Especially for those who have Kara Throws. There’s a few defensive measures for this technique i think though. I forgot, but yea the Jab technique can be varied by
Jab,Jab, Bait & back dash to see if opponent will attempt something.
Jab,Jab, OS
Jab,Jab, Etc…
Other then that, I think im the only one that finds Giefs Grab range a little much; & I like grapple characters. However, I feel you have to give him to much respectable space.
See for yourself.
This shows you how to extend it from neutral. I think this vid is before AE I believe too. Where his Jab SPD range was extended IIRC.
Look @ 0:06 were she’s standing & Gief’s on the Red Line.
[media=youtube]uRNtstbUizg[/media]
Just saying, shit has always personally been shady to me. As a former Bison player. But hey… this must help his matchups.
I wonder how much of the SF4 hate is from people (not saying just in this thread) who are frustrated and disheartened by the online play, and not so much the actual game mechanics themselves. Scrub-tastic DP’s are immensely more effective online where it’s so much easier to drop 1- and 2-frame links, and escaping vortexes is far more difficult online as well. It’s easy to hate the game when you eat a DP xx FADC xx ULTRA just for trying a combo and dropping it.
Overall though, ultimately I think all this debate is indicative of the SF4 series being good, not bad. If it were bad, people wouldn’t be playing it still, and certainly wouldn’t be interested in arguing for/against it with this level of detail. It would have faded into obscurity like any other release that fails to keep people interested.
I really hope Capcom takes into account all this criticism and makes the next SF something that allows for more creativity and raises the bar for online performance. If they don’t, though, we have plenty of options for fighters now, with KOF XIII, Mortal Kombat, Soul Calibur V, and Skullgirls later this year. That’s something to be grateful for, in spite of any dissapointment in SF4.
People would be playing SF4 no matter how it played, so long as it wasn’t a total mess.
I’m not sure how “artificial” the skill barrier is… it’s an intentional skill barrier meant to limit what the character can do. Just like how any other 1 frame link is intentionally so because the combo would be “too good” if the link was easier (I’m aware there are some exceptions to this, but it’s a good general rule).
I just think the game would be a lot dumber if Fei is guaranteed to get rekkas after mashing low short, or if Rufus could easily convert after dive kick -> mash jab into EX tornado (now into ultra!) or whatever. If people think there’s a lot of low short/low jab mashing now… there’d be little reason to use any other buttons with certain characters. At least if you want the reward in the current system, you have to hit a tough link. The risk/reward keeps it in check.
Other games tend to let you cancel into super off low shorts and stuff, but the pushback in those games on block is pretty high. IMO, given the other design choices for SF4, not canceling chained normals is the correct choice.
Eh, is this true? AE still gets tons of entrants in most FG tournaments, even now that there are other games, and if you’re talking about random XBL players, there are so many other online games to play, yet lots still play this. Bad games die on XBL really fast.
What I dislike the most:
1- Mash friendly.
2- Seths wakeup game is 50/50 retard. Real wheel of fortune after first knockdown.
3- No room for zoning/poking (old skool) game.
4- Tech throws need psychic habilities. So people tend to mash cr.lk tech OS during blockstrings.
5- Kens kara throw range is retard.
6- Some characters have tools completely out of their style, creating a myriad of aternatives that other same style characters have not.
7- Guy, my main, sucks a lot no matter how they try to give him a chance. He was bad designed.
Yun. Thank God THATs over with.
Seriously tho, I would say SF4 had its ups and downs over the iterations[2012 I honestly think it pretty close to awesome] but its overall been a fairly solid entry.
ONLINE however can suck a fat load, I personally blame that for a lot of the attitudes of SF players nowadays- but that’s not an SF4 issue persay…
what makes sf4 a bad series? scrubs like you
1- Players don’t make a game bad, no matter how scrub like me they are.
2- I didn’t even said SF4 is bad, only stated somethings I personally dislike. People like and dislike stuff, they have opinions, it’s normal.
3- If my post was pure nonsense scrub garbage (probably was), you have a better alternative than attack me: explain why.
4- Call people scrub wont change peoples mind about something.
Best regards.
It’s always trendy and cool to hate what’s popular, and since SF4 is THE most popular FG, it’s easy to understand why there’s so much hate.
Btw, some complains are really dumb. I’ll just give an example:
- “the window for reversals is to big - it should be 1 frame like in good ol days”.
Well, have you ever considered how Viper or Seth would be if reversals would have a 1 frame window ? Those characters are already deadly after a KD.
The fact is, SF4 is a wonderfull game, and the best fg that came in over a decade.
I really wonder how many of the past decade’s fighting games you’ve actually played.
That really doesn’t matter (and I’ve played a few)
http://www.gamerankings.com/browse.html?site=&cat=57&year=0&numrev=1&sort=0&letter=&search=
hahahah
this is incredible and probably my favourite post in at least a week
In a perfect world this would be a ban-worthy post.