So that’s what I did wrong vs Mago’s Sagat at Canada Cup. I didn’t focus enough tiger shots!
Also, something is wrong with giving someone a better focus attack than someone else? What’s the difference between… giving Ryu a better sweep than someone else? Use your character’s tools, sometimes that involves focus and sometimes it doesn’t. Lots of characters are solid in this game that don’t use focus much (Balrog, eg). I guess all … projectiles should be the same? All throw ranges? Man, why am I even responding seriously to this.
You listed vortexes on your list of things you hate about the game… don’t you think this somewhat scratches the mixup itch some people have? Since AE, defensive characters have had quite a few more difficult matchups with strong offensive characters. I think that defensive play in SF4 is actually pretty difficult now, and it’s probably more frustrating (certainly, it’s a lot harder) to be a defensive player these days.
Fireballs at long-range give free ultra. Obviously you have to avoid EX projectiles but at long range you have enough time to react properly. Focus attacks can also rape certain footsie attacks, such as Akuma’s sweep when he doesn’t have U1. Guess right and focus? Great, maximum damage combo! For Fei-Long, that means the opponent is already in the corner. The consequence for a poorly-timed focus is not the same as that of, say, a poorly-timed SF3 parry. There is much more wiggle room with FA’s. Its completely different from throw ranges and the like. The mechanic is exclusive to SF4, its not a staple of the SF franchise.
Also, responding to your post below…
You’re right: its quite hard sometimes to be a defensive player in SF4. Part of that has to do with…FOCUS ATTACKS. Hence why characters like Fei-Long dominate, notwithstanding his amazing rekka.
Every time you focus a projectile at max range, you put yourself at risk for losing a huge chunk of damage if you mess up. And it’s not really that unlikely that you’ll mess up. I bet you if you were to run stats on matches involving good Sagats, you’d see less than 10% of tiger shots being focused. It doesn’t “nullify” projectiles at all. You can neutral jump or slide/duck under shots, but you can do this just fine in ST too, a game where zoning is strong.
I just don’t get where you’re getting that fireball zoning is free to focus attacks. I haven’t personally played in, nor ever seen, a match where this is the case. I’ve also never seen anybody playing seriously focus more than 2 or 3 fireballs in a row. It’s just too risky.
Don’t you think dive kicks, certain safe on block specials, and the inability for someone like Dhalsim to meaningfully punish a lot of random stuff have a bigger effect on those difficult matches? I don’t think focus attacks have really any bearing, to be honest (with the possible exception of Fei vs Dhalsim, and even then…). Cody’s so-called amazing focus attack doesn’t really do a whole lot for him vs zoners, and typically focusing full or mid-screen vs Dhalsim means you tend to take more damage than you give (plus you lose positioning each time you get hit out of focus).
yeah it’s technically a mixup, you’re right about that, but it’s rather repetitive and boring (imo). gouken has shit defensive options and gets shut down by obvious vortexes from akuma because of all his option-selects. i believe it’s the same with guile in that matchup but not as bad.
in previous sf games you didn’t always have to come in with a safe jump cross up after a hard knockdown because other options from the ground were also quite viable and a little less risky. with vortex it’s too autopilot and is always the best option for those characters who have them. the only risk is if you mistime it which for most isn’t that hard. if vortexes carried more risk to do then it wouldn’t be so stupid but then again there would be less momentum. if vortexes are exciting for some people then more power to them but for me it’s not. i’m not saying vortexes are stupid as a fact but just how i feel about them. i should have added imo after that statement.
I understand that some people may dislike vortexes. It’s not as big of a deal to me, but I’m not going to pretend it isn’t for other people.
I guess my response to your argument is that vortexes (with all those option selects) are just designed to get people to try and block. Once you block the vortex and you pressed 50 extra buttons to make sure they didn’t reversal or backdash, you now have them in block stun with frame advantage… and NOW you can run these meaningful mixups from the ground that you mention… throw mixups, frame traps, walk back walk forward mixups, overheads, etc. All these options still exist in the series, you just have to first block the initial vortex to see them (which is varying degrees of difficulty). If you’re watching a match between Akuma and a person with good defense, you tend to see a ton of creative non-vortex offense, because the vortex is such a set play that it can be predicted and reacted to a little more easily than what comes after it’s blocked.
But it requires a pretty good amount of game knowledge to block a vortex, and at mid-level play (and online) it’s really hard, so the game can degenerate into what you describe at times. IMO, that’s why watching high-level SF4 is much more interesting. The vortex being blocked is much more common, which forces people to be more creative… what cool tricks do you have when your opponent is in block stun and you’re on the ground?
I don’t like that SF4 tries so hard to appeal to new players with input shortcuts and large reversal windows. They should have to take their losses and learn inputs correctly like everyone else.
i like how you defend sf4 and don’t fall in with the crowd. i know what it’s like to have a bunch of people shit on the game you like but i can never keep my cool when arguing with them.
as for your explanation about vortexes still leading to viable mixups after they’ve been thwarted, yeah you’re right but it’s still a little redundant that you have to go through all that just because of the way backdashes work in this game. it’s a lot more work to put in just to have the same result and it’s a little artificial compared to games in the past. it’s just not necessary to have and actually makes the game more difficult and not in an interesting way for me.
coming from 3rd strike as the first sf game i actually took seriously, i’m going to be biased regardless. even though my second favorite sf game is hyper fighting and plays almost nothing like 3s, i still found a lot of interest in the game. i can’t say the same about sf4 but i will say i’d rather play sf4 than most other games out there. it still scratches that fighting game itch and it has some great qualities. personally i think they could have done a lot more with the games system with every sf4 iteration but they mostly messed around with character balance. i can respect the game’s director for wanting to keep his original vision for the game intact but i think the game could have had more potential and still feel like sf4 for those who like it.
Input shortcuts and reversal window leniency don’t bother me at all. I never make any move, in any game, under the belief that my opponent can’t do a move (outside of fighting Geese in CvS2… you gotta show me the Storm before I respect it). Helping players get the moves they want, when they want them means nothing to me. Good players will get their moves out anyway, so who really cares?
Input leniency only bugs me when I get moves out accidentally, because the window is so long. Outside of that, it’s really not a big deal.
i used to hate ssf4 too, but i think it’s the most logical fg ever made. note: i didn’t say the best, just the most logical. when people complain or ask for stuff for their character they should consider the effect. now, i will say this, a.e. fei long, yun, and yang were stupid and should have never happened, but capcom changed it. the only problem i have with sf4 is the safe corner. i’ve never played a fg with safe corners like sf4. it used to be that you didn’t want to go into a corner because you would die, but not in sf4. the jumping allows idiots to jump over and over and you can’t do anything to stop them unless your character can jump really high. essentially, sf4 lets people off the hook more than old games, but i just deal with it by attacking when i know i have position, frame adv, and match tempo, and playing totally lame if i move you to the corner or if you are a masher. besides that, it’s all an educated guessing game: pattern recognition (of your opponent and yourself), pattern baiting, baiting, and old fashioned mind games.
I think it’s pretty hard to argue that SF4 is a bad game for competition. It obviously rewards skill. I say this to distance myself from the absurd complaints of someone like Tataki whose understanding of the game apparently hasn’t evolved since 2009. The problem I have is I don’t really respect or find interesting some of the skills it rewards. The capacity to really rock someone with offensive ground-based play is weakened. To me, the ability to win with a character like Viper or Seth is 1. not as hard to do as winning with a footsie-oriented character (tiers notwithstanding) and 2. not the kind of skill an SF game should be testing to begin with. On top of that the game is boring, due to problems with speed and creativity of offense mentioned earlier. None of these things make it a bad game for competition though, but if the game isn’t fun first and foremost that doesn’t really matter.
I find it hysterical that people are mad about lenient inputs. Are you so insecure in your ability to master the game that if some guy can do a shoryuken in your blockstring, suddenly your skills are crippled? The only time it may edge out a win is if you’re honest to god just not as smart as the other dude.
Only thing that pissed me off was invincible back dashes, viper, Elf, auto block and how damage scaling went all the way to 10%
Unfortunately SFxT still have invincible back dashes and awful damage scaling. personally i hoped for damage scaling to cap off at 50%. To add on to that throw ranges are awful. sigh* Oh well.
I can’t confirm this now but I think auto block is gone (minus the gem) because of the alpha counter. So that means you can worry less about reversals during block stings… Game is faster… Less floaty jumps…true block strings… all characters won’t be free on wake up because of tech roll… Blocked dp’s won’t be safe unless it has massive hit stun and hit multiple times to tag cancel out off (akuma and ken). poking will be great again because you either have to block or counter pokes no more FADC
if you get cornered in 3s and most fg you die. if you get cornered in sf4, you can maneuver more easily because neutral jumping can be spammed easily, and also there’s no universal overhead to keep people honest…(i’m a very aggressive player).
have you not noticed that people are content to just squat corners because they know you can’t do shit to them. i remember listening to renic and 5star talk about not wanting to be in a corner in 3s, but i swear to god i see morons in sf4 jump all the way back into corners and squat. you can’t jump at them, so all you can do is low forward, overhead if you have a quick overhead character, or move yourself back to get better position to safe jump(even though doing this will let them escape). crossing them up in the corner works better for certain characters, but i don’t want to corner myself.
everything else that everyone seems to complain about is fairly easy to navigate, but not being able to corner rape is very annoying. that’s all i was saying.
Neutral jumping in the corner can be spammed? People squat in corners because they know you can’t do anything?
Who are you playing against??
When I jump in the corner, I get anti-aired. When I crouch-block in the corner against most of the cast, it’s because I’m cowering in fear of getting the crap kicked out of me.