I understand. I like licorice a lot, so I’ve never looked at good and plenty as yuck.
Abel, Viper and Fuerte aren’t SF characters. Their entire gameplan is, do dumb shit, maybe win matches. Their footsies game is practically nonexistant, Abel and Fuerte in particular basically want to score a knockdown and start setting mixups into more knockdowns with absolutely no other plan B. Claw and Gief, who you could argue have similar gameplans (at least ST Claw), at least play the rest of the game, Abel and Fuerte really don’t. Viper doesn’t even need a knockdown to start setting mixups, like, the fuck’s with that?
The IV series brought the term vortex back into the light thanks to Akuma and Ibuki, but with them, at least it feels like I’m fighting a complete character.
No. I gave the examples of focus attacks, parries, and things like that. What I’m saying is give me SF4 without the focus attacks.
[quote=KumaOso]
What the heck does that even mean?
[/Quote]
Just that the best Viper player said she has no place in Street Fighter, so its probably more true than not. His testimony provides evidence that Viper does not belong in SF4. That’s all I meant.
Any game with no lenient input and reversal window makes mashing ineffective(unless you’re playing Marvel or something); any game that came before SF4 has a less of a problem with mashing strategies.
With Viper, it’s not just her feints; It’s also her SJC and execution requirements. It taints the fundamental aspect of the game. It would be like putting a Gulty Gear character in a KOF game. Noting wrong with variety as long as it stays within the context of the game.
I disagree. People only say that about SF3 because of the parry, but the focus mechanic is much worse. It a free minimum risk offensive and defensive tool that requires no strict window to use, nullifies jumpins, pokes, and projectiles, as well as makes risky offensive maneuvers risk-free. That’s a big change in direction from the SF2 and SF3 series. SF2 put emphasis on normals and at least in SF3, if you mistime a parry or use the wrong one, you’re going to get punished hard.
SF2 doesn’t have any bullshit. Bullshit would imply something stupid happening that doesn’t make any sense. In SF2, if you make bad moves and end up on your back, you probably already lost the round. There’s nothing BS about that.
Yeah but every character having a Throw and every character having Jab,Strong,Fierce,Short,Forward,RH is part of the “universal” tools you seem to detest. I don’t really see anything bad in every character having a Focus Attack over only a few having one?
come on man that’s lolworthy
focus is actually pretty shitty
you just basically described the OPPOSITE of what focusing is.
edit: Why does this goddamn site keep posting when i never actually press post button?
anyway, this post is SO FULL of BS that I have such a hard time just … finding a place to begin
Main reasons I dislike SF4: Incredibly slow walk speeds, low blockstun, huge reversal window, shit throws (at least for walking up and throwing) and autocorrect conspire to make footsie-based offense pretty damn weak in general. You can still do offense because of the myriad option selects, safejumps and vortexes, but this isn’t the kind of offense I find satisfying; rather than actively engaging with your opponent and pressing an advantage on the ground, you wait for a knockdown so you can run absurdly overpowered set plays. Not only is the amount of knowledge required to do basic offense (frame traps, safejump setups off different knockdowns vs. different characters, OSes vs. different characters) absurd compared to the amount of knowledge required to do basic defense (late tech, autocorrect DP), but you’re pretty much forced to do offense in a very specific way. There is no creativity because trying to get creative will result in you getting DPed. Then you have characters like Seth and Viper who can pretty much spazz out and do whatever while ignoring the ground game entirely, which is the kind of offensive play which nets by far the most rewards in SF4.
No, in SF3 if you mistime a parry most of the time you crouch for a second or take a step forward which is unpunishable. If you’re using parry a lot in mixup situations you are using it wrong; the key is to use it in footsie situations where the opponent is very unlikely (if they are even able) to hit you at the other height for the couple of frames that you attempt the parry.
Focus attack is still dumb because at footsie range you can hold it and safely backdash away if your opponent doesn’t press anything, but parry is much worse.
plays melty blood, so I give a fuck less about graphics lol
your first point however, I disagree. we all know how to beat people that mashing dp’s whenever they’re defending. You just do something simple like jab jab > block. DP baited into punish, hooray for you.
it’s the simple point that something so scrubby is actually a legitimate threat, that forces you to give up momentum after like 2 or 3 buttons, whereas in other games where timing and good prediction are actual factors, that allow for you to make a corner push string, or to set up counter hits etc. Defending yourself should not be so easy. Literally having two ex stocks means it’s my turn to hit buttons whenever the other play has a gap in his string, because he has to bait me.
here is what focus attack actually does
-
it’s not FREE, first of all. come on. compared to other footsie moves they have insanely slow start ups, tremendous recovery, and usually, the range isn’t that great. They also only absorb one hit, provided that hit isn’t a focus breaker or a reversal.
-
If you focus and they didn’t do anything, you could be fucked. again, how does this make focus free? In the Vega matchup, people like to focus randomly to try and absorb a poke and dash through on reaction safely. If they’re out of range and I see them wind up a focus, I just wait and EX FBA. there’s nothing they can do. it beats backdash, forward dash, and release.
-
Some people are unsafe on hit if they do a level 1 focus and dash in. Otherwise, you can do a level 2, but your start up is obviously huge.
-
Who cares if they randomly do a focus, you block, and they backdash? They’re giving up space. this is street fighter after all. pretty important stuff. They want to keep focus backdashing, sweet, go find yourself a place in the corner where i’ll murder you.
The ONLY use focus has is to absorb one hit and counter it. You don’t get to absorb all of them, like parry, and if you didn’t succesfully absorb one, there’s a very high chance of you getting punished, and it seldomly results in good offensive pressure if you do dash in anyways.
this explains pretty clearly why focus isn’t a common facet of high level play. It’s a situational move that is severely matchup dependant. Not a gameplay mechanic that instantly makes characters like Remy totally useless.
edit: Right, you also said focus blows up jump ins.
- No
- No
- No
and - No
Even if you can succesfully trip guard people with focus consistently and get crumples, doesn’t matter, empty jump grab is a hard counter to it
for what it’s worth though, no one can succesfully counter all jump ins with focus. if they do the jump in deep, they’ll recover from the landing FAR sooner than your focus will hit them. you’ll just get grabbed or worse. if they do a shallow jump in, then yes your chances are good. in this case, you’re just mixing up with stuff like c. fp because they might have a worse chance of succeeding in this area anyway. again, how does this make focus free?
As for focus being a good defensive maneuver, again, only absorbs one hit. C. mk fireball anyone? St. mp elbow? Scissor kicks? C. lp spam?
Play SF with Fuerte and he can’t win. Abel has to play SF with you before he can do dumb shit. Hakan can’t play SF because he gets rolled over when the Hakan player touches the controller. Viper…well, free cancels are bullshit in my book. They could make it work by changing Seismo, I guess. But it’s too late now (probably.)
I would have much less of a problem with mashing if it only worked when you’re knocked down. I just think it’s bad design to give any characters an invincible, often cancelable 3-5f option to beat frame traps, neutral jumps, and bad backdashes without having to learn anything about the opponent’s options. It’s kind of hard to word this so I hope one understands.
Right, except SF4 has the slowest walkspeeds and the hugest stages of any SF game. Go play ST and realise how boring it is to spend an eternity chasing a turtle to the corner in SF4. Also the reward if they guess right is far in excess of the tiny bit of space they give up for guessing wrong.
It’s the reason why for some time, Gootecks was contemplating switching to Ibuki instead of using Rog. Oh and why Mike Ross hates that character.
Well that’s fine, I can understand why you don’t like it (I don’t like it either normally, especially online where ppl feel the need to run away from you when YOU have a life lead), I’m just saying it isn’t cheap or anything. I’d prefer if people did that.
Keep in mind people really hated Third Strike for it’s first five or so years too.
free cancels are what’s bullshit about viper?
what exactly is your idea of playing SF?
People still hate Third Strike. Justin and Ricky are on record as always having disliked it and they were two of the USA’s top players. People seem to have this idea that people who vehemently disliked 3S in '99 turned around after Tokido scraped Justin in 2002 or after Daigo did the same in 2004 and said “oh never mind it’s actually a good game” and that isn’t really true.
The hate (mainly) just comes from the fact that it’s the biggest game in the FGC, and cause everyone plays it everyone has a chance to point out all the different little things wrong with it.
The hate mainly comes from that combined with the fact that there are so many things wrong with it. People like to draw this equivalency because all games of course have problems, but the problems people complain about with SF4 are of a far more fundamental nature than, say, RC Blanka in CvS2 or something (the major exception being parrying which is the most fundamental change to the classic SF system, but that is still just one thing not a dozen things like SF4). If you haven’t played a prior game in the series at a competitive level you wouldn’t understand.
Strong footsies, strong rush down, or strong zoning game. Your character beats El Fuerte. If you lost to El Fuerte, it’s because you did something stupid and let him knock you down. And then you either got incredibly unlucky or you decided to take risks that didn’t pay off.
If your character has strong footsies, strong rush down, or a combination of zoning and strong footsies, your character will typically beat Abel or at least go even. Abel doesn’t just magically get in for free.
And how is this not what’s bullshit about Viper? lol What do you have left when you take away Seismo chains, SJC, EX Seismo feint, and Thunder Knuckle feint? The ability to change your jump arc and damage? I guess that’s still mid-tier in this game.
I want to know what your idea of SF is. Because it sounds like you don’t like playing it. My idea of SF is game plans, educated guesses, and rewards. El Fuerte isn’t top tier because he has no reliable way of getting that reward…which is a pretty shitty reward in addition. All he can really rely on is educated guesses. Abel has a reeeally simple game plan, and he does dominate because of it. It’s connect that fst.MK > your reward > go to town and get more rewards. Educated guesses get him big damage. But he does have bad MUs. Viper, with her free cancels, effectively neutralizes footsies…and that’s why she doesn’t fit in. She’s top in my book because there is virtually no risk involved in doing this. Throw in big damage, insane rewards on educated guesses…well, she’s practically a Marvel character. Seth might as well be a Marvel character too (not the greatest idea giving him a 3f command grab, design wise.)
lololol because I don’t sound like a sarcastic ass yet
anyway every game is bad except SF2 and Vampire Savior. But half the SF2 revisions are bad and Vampire Savior is practically dead so we’re all doomed
The real reason why people often condemn SF4 is because people have something to compare SF4 to.
A lot of people back then seemed to hate SF3 as well, but then they ended up liking it; many of the people hating it were the people that were SF2 players.
Once again, you can say “no one is going to remember SF4”, but we are going to remember SF4. Simply for the fact that the fighting game scene was simply reborn thanks to it and how many years and majors we’ve put into the game itself.
ST was uncomparable in its time period, there was little to nothing to compare it to. But SF4, there is definitely something to compare it to…
I don’t care if you hate SF4, Alpha, 3s… If you don’t like it don’t play it.
Don’t let the competitive scene dictate what games you play. Revitalize the games you love if you really want that game to played.
SF4 is flawed, I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it’s by no means a bad game… Just… Different.
1 Like