Apparently I am being told that there is no such thing as priority in SF. If this is true than can someone explain to me why Gief’s EX SPD would beat a normal throw? If this no prioity is true, than that would change the way i think about this game quite a lot.
It’s not so much that there’s no priority, it’s more that people think about priority in the wrong way. There is no magic number, SPD is 7 so it beats everything 6 or below. Priority is the combination of many factors, mainly hit boxes and various invulnerabilities. My guess for SPD is that either the move is throw invulnerable or the activation/active frames exist in such a way that SPD always win out against normal throws. Almost no fighting games actually have a priority.
Priority is an amalgamation of several other factors which determines what beats what: startup, invincibility, and hitboxes.
Sagat’s crouching fierce in CvS2 is a “high priority” move because it has lightning fast startup and ridiculous hitboxes. It will commonly trade with other lightning fast moves (like supers) and beat out others entirely, and it has the range to do so.
In the case of Gief’s EX SPD, EX SPD has invincibility on it for the first 5 frames (and is active on the 4th frame). A regular throw has no invincibility but is active on the 3rd frame.
Frame 1: Both players start their respective throws
Frame 2: Both throws are starting up - Zangief is unthrowable until the 5th frame due to EX SPD’s invincibility
Frame 3: Player 2’s regular throw finishes starting up, but whiffs because Zangief is still unthrowable
Frame 4: Player 2 is recovering from his whiffed throw, Zangief’s EX SPD finishes starting up and catches Player 2
Frame 5: damaaaage
If im thinking of things right “priority” as most people think of it… ex: 3s chun back RH..Is a combination of the move in question, Hit box, speed(active frames), frame advantage and whatever unique trait it might have
Ok there are two types of priority. Priority can either be a term made up by players to give general “power” ratings to moves based on their startup, active frames, invulnerabilities, hitboxes etc. It’s entirely made up and comes from the idea that certain moves out-prioritize others because they always seem to win out against most moves when in reality it’s just frames/hitboxes.
REAL priority is how a game handles attacks overlapping. As an example I’ll use Guilty Gear because it’s the game I have the most frame knowledge of and I’m not entirely sure that SF works the same way.
In GG, if two attacks overlap from you and the opponent, the game handles certain hit confirmation before others. If a character does a meaty attack on your on wakeup and is within throw range, you can throw them every time assuming the move they’re using isn’t throw invulnerable. In GG, if an active attacking frame overlaps a character and on that very same frame the other character attempts a throw, the throw will win 100% of the time. That is real priority because the game will prioritize certain types of attacks over others. There are plenty of other examples of this kind of priority in pretty much every fighting game ever.
Edit: Oh and I know in SF4 throws have a few frames of startup, but in the example of priority it’s always assuming that 2 attacks land on the same frame.
Priority is when you execute the motions that can read two or more commands and one has a higher percentage of coming out then the others. Supers have priority over Ultras, I’ll explain. When you do the motions for the Ultra and press all 3 kicks/punches you’ll do Ultra. Now if you have Super and Ultra availble and do the same motions for Ultra, but instead you don’t press the 3 kicks/punches in sequence you’ll execute a Super. Now if you don’t have Super and do the motion for Ultra and you don’t press the 3 kicks/punches in sequence you’ll still get the Ultra. Of course this can be avoided by having macros mapped to you’re specific buttons, but it is an example of the definition of priority in fighting games. Or at least that’s the definition I’ve been told.
moderators note: the priority this poster speaks refers to precedence regarding overlapping inputs. Not quite on topic but useful, correct info. -ski
The only cases of actual priority are that some moves are throw immune for some duration (Abel’s command throw, Rose’s standing medium kick) and some moves are strike immune for some duration (a lot of EX moves), and some moves are both (DP’s). The reason that Gief’s EX SPD (or ANY SPD) will beat a normal throw is that a SPD comes out in 2 frames and a normal throw comes out in 3 frames, so the SPD will hit before the normal throw does. This is how a lot of “high priority” attacks work, even though there’s no magic “priority number” or whatever below the surface. EX SPD has immunities too, though I don’t know if it’s throw immune.
EX SPD is slower than a normal throw, as listed above. It comes out in 5 frames, normal throw comes out in 3, but EX SPD has Throw Invul.
And those aren’t “cases of actual priority”, they’re just moves with invulnerabilities.
That’s not entirely true, it has nothing to do with input, heck your example shows that it CAN’T be to do with input. If it’s a meaty attack by definition you’ve input before the other person can do anything. The reason for this is that throws are 0 frame start up in GG, and you’re probably right they are checked first. Which means that if you press throw and you’re not blocking or being hit and your opponent is in throw range(and not throw in vulnerable) then you WILL throw them, regardless of what they are doing.
if by higher % you mean 100% instead of 0. fighting games are mostly deterministic(I would hope, obviously there’s some things that aren’t like faust item throw), which means if you do the exact same thing every time, the exact same thing will happen. Which means if you do an input the exact same every time you’ll get the same move every time.
That’s not really priority, that’s the game fixing your failed input for you, except when you actually have super your failed input actually means something so it can’t know you MEANT ultra.
The actual inputs don’t need to be on the same frame. What’s important is that if 2 actions happen at the same time, one out-prioritizes the other. So my bad on wording it like “input”, I meant the actual attacks coming out on the same frame.
I used the meaty attack as an example of 2 things overlapping each other, but for an even more theoretical and correct example:
If throws in a fighting game have 1 frame of startup, and your opponent uses a 1 frame jab attack at the same time he is within range of your throw, and the jab wins 100% of the time, it means that the game handles hit confirmation for normals before throws. If the throw wins, it means hit confirmation for throws are handled first, and thus have more priority.
Also you’re incorrect in saying “no matter what your opponent is doing your throw will win if they aren’t invulnerable.” It just so happens that in GG, you’re correct. But a game could have any number of things where say specials>throws>normals or supers>projectiles>specials>command chrows>throws>normals and so on. It just so happens that in the case of many fighting games, command throws and throws tend to be high on the list.
True, but I figured by the context of both of us talking about nothing but GG as examples it would be assumed I was talking about GG. And which games actually handle specials/supers differently than normal attacks? I was always under the belief that there were attacks and throws, and everything just had different attributes based on those.
You’re thinking of button strength priority on inputs, not move priority.
^ In terms of command input priority, there are no % chances. There is generally a strict, ordered hierarchy of what takes precedence over what. SF4 apparently has some bizarre and quirky exceptions to that list though, like if you have super and ultra meter, and you try to link an ultra, you’ll get the super instead.
People do talk about priority as a general or relative approximation of a move’s ability to beat out other moves; there’s nothing wrong with it and it’s a useful concept to have for understanding matchups. However, in terms of the actual game mechanics, the what-beats-what for the attacks themselves boils down to nothing more than hitboxes and positioning and movement and frame data, and human timing.
Ok so obviously invincibility affects the ‘appearance’ of priority (in the throw vs SPD example) and moves of different types are prioritised differently (i.e throw vs normal vs special) but there still must be some sort of ruleset for working out what wins when two opposing moves of the same type are active at the exact same time i,e active hitboxes appearing at the same time but overlapping (2 moves hitting on the same frame) or two active hotboxes moving into each others path to overlap (two jumpkicks meeting midair for example)
I expect it’s a combination of the move strength and which move began execution first.
I wish frame data included information on invincibility frames.
Those are called trades.
edit for more clarification:
It is still all hitboxes, if both players have an active attacking hit box in the other players hittable zone they will both get hit, there is nothing that calculates which one will win.
A trade won’t always happen in those scenarios I’m sure.
If I as Ryu for example jump into Ken’s jump RH with my own jump RH and we meet perfectly in the middle, Ken’s move will beat Ryu’s clean. Active hitboxes are moving into each other in that scenario and the game is giving it to one side without a trade.
It’s hard to show you exactly how it works without a tool that draws the hitboxes(which would have to be built into the game). It is entirely possible that those moves have different hitboxes even though the animation is the same/very similar, even if they do have the same hit box unless they are both going at the exct same angle into eachother it is possible that one persons attacking hit box hits the non attacking hit box of the other player first(my bet on what’s happening). Remember the attacking hitbox is only one part of the animation. So say ken’s attacking hit box went all the way to the tip of his toe, and ryu’s only went to his ankle. That would mean ken’s attack covers more area and will likely hit part of ryu’s hit box that won’t make a trade first. Now i don’t know exactly how it works in SF4, I know that in guilty gear if 2 active attacks meet eachother without touching the actual ‘hittable’ part of either player it will make a clash. My guess is in strett fighter 4 this situation will either let both moves keep going until one of them hits a hittable part, or a trade occurs.
Or maybe you’re right and there is some magic number or other method that decides, that would be very different from the way most fighting games work though, and I don’t believe that is the case.
I’ll have to fire up HDR and turn the hitboxes on. I can’t see how say in the jumping RH example that both hitboxes (active for about 5 frames each) aren’t meeting head on without touching any part of the character’s regular hitbox i.e just foot to foot.
Like i said maybe street fighter is different, GG is my main game, and I know several other do not use any sort of priority at all, AND I’ve heard people much more knowledgeable than me about street fighter say that there is no priority.
I don’t know(in SF) what happens when two attacking hit boxes hit eachother without touching the hittable part, like I said if i had to guess, I’d say both attacks keep moving until they do hit a hittable part, or it’s a trade. If the first one is true I’d guess either the positioning or the angle or the size of kens roundhouse is better(or the positions of the characters themselves in whatever situation you’re talking about) means ken’s is going through to a hittable spot first, or if the second one is true ken is just hitting a hittable part before the trade occurs.
I can’t think of a specific example. and I wish I knew more about 3S priority because I’ve read some strange things about Akuma and how his pokes work. Something about since he has no EX moves his normals are treated in priority as “specials” and I’m not really sure what effect that has on 3S poking because it’s not my main game. It’s entirely possible that the information I read was bogus and I have no real way of telling unless someone knowledgeable in 3S responds.
I’m also unsure if there are any games, such as GG, where command throws out prioritize normal throws, or if it’s just a case of the developers going the other route and just giving all command throws throw invincibility. I know that’s the case most of the time but I don’t know enough frame data from various games to say.
So in short, I’ll just assume there’s a safe chance you’re right unless someone else can bring up a specific example of supers/specials/command throws having their own hit priority.