What is acceptable lag?

Tech Talk
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I was considering a RJ-45-> Saturn RJ-45-> NES and RJ-45-> TG16 adapters, but the guy who contacted has a current virtual monopoly on rj-45 adapters. He said I was being passive aggressive, so he refuses to sell to me.

First I could look for other RJ45 sales on Shoryuken. I could wait until Jasen’s or ArcadeShcck have the more obscure systems in stock.

Then there is this place called Raphnet, who advertises on their PS2-> Saturn converter 5 ms of ping or less. Their SNES->NES adapter is considered zero ping. Plus they have a GameCube->N64 adapter.

I assume all their adapters are 5 ms or less. If there is 5 ms of ping, I can think of the 2 most sensitive-to-ping-time types of games: fighters and speedruning.

One person said Raphnet should be prod of 5ms, because that’s about 1/3-1/4 of a frame assuming 60 fps, or 1/6-1/8 of a frame in 30 fps mode.

I think I have found the most sensitive to ping applicaition there is… the Whammy Flash Game.

On my old CRT iMac, i could stare at the “3k/4k/5k and a spin” square, and as soon as I see it lit up hit it and be in time to claim it. I consistently get scores of over 50k, and at times beaten Michael Larson’s record, (unlike him, who used patterns. my board was randomized) I wasn’t even in the top 10, so others had that idea too, seeing scores in the millions.

When I loaded it up on my new iMac, I noticed I couldn’t hit that square. I was always a little behind. My new iMac doesn’t have a CRT.

I thought it might be my reflexes being slow, so I took the old iMac out of mothballs, and dialed up another 50k game on the CRT TV.

I think i might save my CRT iMac for arcade emulation.

I don’t know how much ping a modern TV adds vs the old CRT, but it was the difference between a game of quick reactions and a game of finding safe times to stop.

How much ping does an LCD screen add in that case? If it’s 5 ms or less, then 5ms is significant ping. If it’s 33 ms or more, maybe 5 ms isn’t much. I’m just giving a real example where fighting for milliseconds is important.

Second, any speedrunners here? Is 5ms of ping a killer in speedrunning?

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For compedative fighting game playing you want subframe lag, anything with in that window between zero and under 1 frame is fine. You not going to see any more improvement. This is due how the game engine accepts inputs.

Most PC games are also frame reliant for input

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  1. I already told you in your other thread that you will NOT feel a 5ms difference.

  2. I already told you in your other thread that RJ-45 cables are not adapters; they’re simply cables.

  3. I already told you in your other thread that the 5ms is “lag”, not “ping”. “Ping” is a measure of return message time, and you already acknowledged in your other thread that you knew the meaning, yet you keep using the wrong term.

You keep re-asking questions in new threads that were already answered in your other threads. I’ve tried to help by answering your questions, but I really don’t know why you’re not accepting the answers that were already given to you.
Sorry, I give up, and I’m out on any additional assistance.

1 Like
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@FreedomGundam I value your advice, but there is an expression “wisdom of the crowd”. If 2 or 3 people say 5ms is quick enough, and there are no opinions to the contrary, then it should be good.

@DarkSakul confirmed it, and I don’t see any contrary advice, but the night is young.

I thought maybe someone from the speedrunning community would say that 5 ms is too much. But this is a fighting game community. I thought I’d just put lag on a specific topic, instead of heading it with something else. Get more responses about lag.

So with 2 people saying 1/3-1/4 frame at 60 fps (1/6-1/8 frame at 30 fps) is fine for fight games, then it’s good for fight games for me.

Does anyone know the lag time of a 2013 iMac display? If I have such a number then I know THAT number is too much lag to play Whammy. But then again, Whammy is an extreme case. a game that’s 90% reflex and 10% strategy (when to press your luck or pass). Fighting games have way more strategy, where it’s not necessarily the quickest person, but also one who can think fast AND act just as fast. If Network ping is big enough where 50-150 ms is acceptable, then fight games should definitely fit.

And sorry for not using the precise term 100% of the time.

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It’s nice to have as little lag as possible, to increase the chances of inputs being received and processed before the next window (frame) starts rather than only after it ends. 5-ms lag means that the probability that, on average, a button press will arrive in time for the next frame is 70% (1 - (5 / 16.6667)) - 15-ms lag would mean that the probability of a given input arriving in time for the next frame is only 10%, for example. I try not to get too crazy about this, nothing is perfect. :stuck_out_tongue: Also, I don’t believe any such cable would be responsible for the aforementioned lag; the relevant source of lag is the controller PCB.

In any case, 5-ms lag isn’t something to lose sleep over, IMO. It’s not crazy-fast, but it’s not bad.

+1 to wishing Jasen’s Customs or ArcadeShock sold cables for all old systems supported by the Mc Cthulhu / Brook Retro.

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Blockquote

Well both said they still have PS2 and PS3/USB and one of them have Dreamcast. I just had a crazy with a guy who says he’s normally a good guy, and I’m normally a good guy. We just didn’t click. He holds a virtual monopoly on RJ45 adapters and is currently the only place in town for NES, TG16, GC, XB, and once thy sell out on ebay, SNES RJ 45 adapters.

But Jasen and Arcade Shock said they’ll eventually carry other RJ45 systems.

By the way I emailed Jasen, who has said they helpled with the Book Retro Board, and thought, if the only obstacle to Genesis, 3DO with Daisy chain, Jaguar, CD-i, 7800, and systems older than the NES is the number of pins in an Ethernet cable, namely 8, then you can use a standard with a higher number of pins. And if there were a standard that has 15+ outputs, you could in theory make Atari 5200 and Jaguar adapters. Does anything we know of use more?

Also make it so there this new 15 pin standard to female ethernet conector so your rj45s don’t become obsoleted. :wink: I call it the Paleo Board.

It would need a male and female pair, for 3DO daisy Chaining, and for Colecovision/Intellivison/5200/Jaguar keypad. So maybe a manual universal 12 key pad, and for games that use 1 or 2 of the keys, a button activator RCA or 3.5 mm hole, so you can let 0 be Hyperspace in Defender and put pause on the stick, and the less often used keys can be accessed with either an original joypad or a universal one that gets encoded into its proper joyport.

Finally, can’t you have an “uncoded signal”, like an Astrocade, a Sega Master System, a 7800, and a 2600 Booster Grip, assuming you have enough pins?

Or maybe make a universal 9-pin pack that can be used with all the following: 3DO with Daisy CHAIN, Genesis 6 button, Genesis 3 button for Ms Pac Man and Forgotten Worlds, Master System for Montezuma’s Revenge, 7800, Colecovision, Intellivision, Astrocade, and 2600 Booster Grip. You might either need a mode switch or a mode button so it doesn’t revert to basic 2600 mode. A 2 digit key can be displayed: 3D, G6, G3, MS, 78, BG, CV, IV, and BA.

Then there would have to be a separate Jaguar pack, and a separate 5200/15 Pin PC pack. The circuit has built in analog controls controlled in an all-or-nothing situation using digitization. And maybe the Atari 5200 can have an SACD Scrubber, or Simultaneous ANY Cardinal Directions Scrubber, which prevent diagonals as well as opposite direcitons in certain 5200 games that mess up with a diagonal press. or mayeb for Dreadnaught Factor for their 5200 a Diagonal limiter, which when diagonal, gives a signal strength of 70.7% vertical + 70.7% horizontal, if certain speedrun sites and Twin Galaxies consider the diagonal speed boost illegal because it’s not possible with a default 5200 controller.

Finally for Track N Field and The Activision Decathlon, SOCD should be shut off. TheTrack N Field controller made during the 2600 days DOES NOT Have SOCD. One button is left, one button is right, and one is fire, but physically left and right are separated. Maybe there could be a track n field mode where 2 buttons are L/R and a 3rd button is jump/throw.