What if Phoenix could not transform?

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
1

This is just something that discussions with friends have got me thinking about, and is purely speculative. Please be gentle.

Many times I’ve come across people who say that they’d be perfectly willing to give up her ability to become Dark Phoenix in exchange for more health, for example, or having non-transforming Phoenix as a selectable alternate character. I can perfectly understand why people would find that such a concept attractive, seeing as she already has so much going for her as a character if health is taken out of the equation: effective versatility with both keepaway and rushdown tactics, probably the best teleport in the game, two useful hypers etc. Paired with a health bar of 800,000 (or most likely a little less) I somehow see players taking interest in a less extreme risk-reward playstyle with an already effective character on paper.

So what I bring to the table is this to speculate on: what opinions do you all have on the prospect of Phoenix playing less like Phoenix and more like the MvC3 equivalent of Seth, except way better?

2

If she didn’t have Dark Phoenix, but had average health, she would be very broken.
I believe someone has said this too.

3

And to fix her brokenness, her homing tk shot would need to be removed

4

She would still be a dangerous threat.

5

She’d be top tier. The main thing is, Dark Phoenix should not be allowed to activate X factor. I think it’d be fine if she can use X factor such as if Phoenix activates it and then dies and goes Dphx. At the moment the big problem is Dphx combined WITH X factor which outright trumps everything else in the game.

6

Read my sig, kthnxbai

7

I think X Factor and Healing Field are the two best things about Phoenix. As a character I think she’s more beatable than people put her out to be even when she’s D.Phoenix. D.Phoenix without X Factor is definitely more fightable than the unfightable XF3 D.Phoenix. Healing Factor is pretty broken IMO because it gives either Phoenix a ridiculous health increase that can be comboed into.

8

keep in mind that phoenix teams would no longer need to save 5 meters, boosting the overall teams contribution… I always looked at reg. phoenix like a more powerful trish (better shots, damage, normals, and has a teleport)

9

If you’re gonna do something as drastic as remove X Factor from Dark Phoenix, you’re left with a choice between completely redesigning the whole character or simply allowing her to be relegated from competitive playability.

They made sure to design her as an ‘all-in’ character. That goes for the max level X Factor as well as the meter and assist slot.

10

If she has double health she also get to heal a lot red health, which can be setup with DHC trick or aerial exchange

I think in the end you still have to kill her in 1 combo.

11

This. You are allowing her to not be instantly killed by any touch/big chip damage, and she and her team no longer have to hoard meters for dear life. She’d easily be the best point character in the game. She still has good mobility, good screen control, good ways to create openings, solid combos, and great abuse of the DHC rescale. The only thing she wouldn’t be unquestionably top tier at would be her assists.

12

800 k is excessive. 650k sounds about right.

However, this does bring up a question, how good IS Phoenix on her own, without the crutch of Dark Phoenix backing her up? If we were to split it 3 way ala smash where they have tier rankings for zelda, sheik and both, how would the rankings of OG phoenix, Dark Phoenix and the current 2 combined stack up?

Same goes with boxers ar

13

Without the “crutch” of DPh and with 800k health, not only would she be the best point character and battery in the game, she’d also be stupid deadly in the 2nd spot/lynchpin spot.

1st of all she builds meter better than anyone in the game (I thought it was Mags or Zero, but a little research showed me that Jean does build it the best). Not only does she have incredible rushdown, but she has incredible keepaway skills.

2nd of all, do you really wanna deal with an 800k Phoenix with HF?

3rdly because of HF, she has access do the DHC trick and kill off somebody if she’s in the 2nd spot.

#4 Without having to hold on to that meter, she can do Double Inferno combos for over 610,000 damage.

#5 Since the other characters in her team don’t worry about her whoring the meter, she can now team up with other characters she normally never would and with more health and HF, AND the fastest meter building skills in the game, make them even more deadly. She could now team up with Viper and giver her an assload of meter. She could team up with Dormammu as well.

#6 Using her assists wouldn’t be so much of a risk. TK Overdrive is a pretty good assist to stop ground movement and it cuts through a lot of stuff. Problem is, people of are so scared to death of her getting hit, we don’t use it.

DPh is awesome. She controls the screen like nobody else in the game and doeals immense damage. But Jean is still top tier.

This has been THE INVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:

Without DPh and with Sent’s health being nerfed, Phoenix would’ve been on EVERY SINGLE TEAM that didn’t lead with Wesker.

14

Ok, how about OG phoenix without dark Phoenix for 420k health? Is she still top tier?

15

Top Tier potential.
Upper Mid Tier reality.

This has been THE INVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:

Gettin nuked by one random Shinkuu/Chaotic Flame would not be fun. She would only be used as a meter builder. Maybe a few REALLY skillful people would have her in the #2 spot for the DHC trick. But without DPh and with the same health… She’d still be really good. Just super risky. I’d still use her (I’m a Jean fan) but we’d probably see a lot more Trish and Viper use instead of Jean on point. Jean’s too risky and Trish’s/Viper’s assist have better use and they would die if they get juggled for a few hits.

Jean’s not exactly a defensive fortress.

16

Yet more subtle "nerf Dark Phoenix talk"
It shouldn’t even be considered. I didn’t even like the Sentinel nerf, though I could -somewhat- understand its principle.
I still don’t see her as a legitimate threat, and I’m a phoenix player. Phoenix is amazing on point, buffing her would not absolve the tears DP causes. People just don’t want to deal with it. So many things either,
>Snapback and kill regular phoenix or force an x factor to survive
or
>one shot DP
that nerfing is absolutely retarded. Its like nobody wants to bother to actually learn to play as her but is just waiting on an inevitable nerf or revamped MVC3 to eliminate her as a “threat”.

Game’s been out two months folks, that’s all.

17

If you were really a Phoenix player and not some dark Phoenix mashing scrub you would know she needs to be tweaked. The fact that you don’t see her as a legitimate threat then you are playing a different game than I am. I can say confidently that against most people I play if I have Dark Phoenix and Xfc 3 if I touch your first character your entire team is likely dead. Every new character that comes in has a 50/50 mixup and failing that a rushdown that has the best high low + crossup in the game. It feels wrong that when I play I just random my first two characters because I believe that much in my Phoenix. I’m not a tourney player but I play in a circle that likes trekking to tourneys themselves and I don’t deny it when they call my Phoenix cheap. It’s dumb and needs to be less of a gimmick.

Changing her to regular HP is DEFINITELY not a good option as regular Phoenix is already very very good. Most of my OCV’s come from her alone. I only offered the X factor idea because the players would activate XFC with regular phoenix which people can actually have a better chance defending against without every hit being a Touch of Death. IMO if she transforms with XFC, she should still keep it. This actually makes it so people can play a bit smarter with or against her without nerfing her as much as people would think. Dark Phoenix without Xfactor is perfectly playable. She’s just not out of control. (pun intended)