What exactly is footsies?

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
21

So I’m watching Spellmaster J play 3S (since I find it hilarious that he takes off his shirt and rolls around on the ground like a pig whenever he wins), and I noticed that he’s really good walking back to make the other person whiff something, which he then punishes with his Ken sweep.

He knows the exact range of the move his opponent is most likely to use at any distance first and foremost. In this instance he sticks out a d.MK at a safe distance then walks back in order to draw a reaction from the opponent. The opponent takes the bait and tries to do dash forward, sweep (since he figures Ken is at the disadvantage for whiffing his d.MK). This is exactly the kind of reaction Spellmaster J was hoping for and seizes the opportunity by punishing the opponent’s whiffed sweep with his own sweep for the knockdown and the advantage.

Apply this to CvS2 and you’ll see good players like Choi and fat Chinese people constantly whiff a jab, then immediately walk back with Sagat. Once they see an opponent like Cammy take the bait and stick out a roundhouse for example, they walk forward and punish HARD with far s.HP xx super.

The key to making an opponent’s move whiff is that you have to already be walking back by the time the opponent presses a button.

The instant the opponent hits their button, you’re not allowed to walk back anymore because of proximity guard. If anybody were going to write a guide of footsies, that would be one of the first rules I think. Anybody have some more tips like that?

22

heh… buktooth once told me, punishing whiffs is a small part of footsies. and you guys seem to be making it out to be the only thing. if you guys haven’t noticed (i know i have) all whiffs don’t go unpunished for the same reason all jumps don’t get DPed. I’ve seen choi whiff on justin before, and justin didn’t punish it. and justin has hell of alot faster reflexes and knowledge of footsies than most people here. so please stop acting like whiffing something is automatic damage for people and is the single major factor in footsies. there’s plenty more than just whiffing.

23

Is this a good footsie? I alway try to bait myself to come close to me Vs Sagat. As I try to come closer I walk back a half of Inch and a inch closer to corner him then I wait for him to attack before I retaliate his attack.

24

I agree with you Cheese master…

but punishing wiffs/laggy moves seem to be a very important part of footsies. In highlevel play… Punishing wiffs is one of the ways player get damage /free damage. Being able to punish wiff on reaction is “one” of the important skills that good players have. That’s probally why people are preaching “wiff punishing”.

but yeah… let’s not over-study “wiff punishing”. :blush:

Good thread guys :karate:

25

Post something I can immediately start incorporating into my game if you have some info you’re holding back then. People have repeated that “Buk said this, Buk said that…” a million times already, but looking at this thread I still haven’t learned how to set up a jump in or create a situation where my move will stuff the opponent’s on his startup. Trying to punish whiffs from Vega is near impossible for example. Haohmaru’s far s.MP might be easily punished when whiffed, but the range on that move is so good you rarely ever get the opportunity to do just that. Yamazaki far s.HK is another example. How do I fight against those characters/moves?

26

I really don’t like getting guard broken by Blanka, so whenever I’m at around half screen or slightly closer, I’ll use Sagat’s crouching fierce whenever I have a feeling Blanka is going to do his own crouching fierce. My fierce will whiff if Blanka didn’t press anything, Blanka’s fierce would hit me at about his max range since his fierce outranges mine, but if we both pressed fierce at the same time (what I was hoping for) my fierce will beat his clean. In addition to fierce, I might opt to hit s.LK instead, but I usually save that move for only when the opponent walks into range now. Never just spam it repeatedly and expect to win. If Blanka had done a slide whenever I do my fierce, he wins instead I think.

My friend used Sakura’s d.MK of all moves to counter me harrassing him with Guile’s d.MK. It worked. I was suprised. Another person I play sticks out standing jabs all day so I can’t easily place a Ken f+HK on him unless I’m perfectly ranged. Just a pixel too close and I’ll get stuffed. Similar tactic to Blanka just sitting there and sticking out d.MK’s repeatedly (easily counter by Chun’s s.MP xx super, but a little tougher for the rest of the cast).

Again, I’d like some more basic info like that if anybody can help. Ken/Guile vs Blanka/Sagat could be a start. Fighting on the ground against Yamazaki, Sak, and Vega in general would be good too. There have been a lot of instances where I’m waiting for Sak to do her RC hurricane so I can roll through and kill her, but I get caught up so much in just trying to keep her from walking up and kicking me (or sitting back and pressing far s.MP all day), that I can’t even react in time when Sak finally does do that RC hurricane right in my face.

27

footsies is something people try and dissect too much=). and if you’re name isn’t daigo/choi/dan/somebody i’m forgetting, please stop playing C-ken. i love reading the ken forum and damn near EVERYONE of his matchups is a tough matchup. unless your footsies are impeccable/YOU DON’T GIVE A FUCK about playing patient, then you’re wasting your time.

my $.02

28

what’s wrong playing with ken? for me playing ken versus top tier characters is a challenge to me. Even I lost in the match I have to do something to out match them in the next game.

29

Kang brings up a good point I haven’t found out (in the thread…or anywhere for that matter)when a good time to jump. I’ve never found a situation where i can get a free jump in other than a crossup meaty/wakeup crossover. So yea…Footsies ain’t ALL bout whiff countering. However it’s what it’s come to be to be most usefull. How can i add low jump in to my footsies game? Out of all the things that KCXJ taught me…the most important was: “Creating situations for you to capitolize on” So footsies is spose to help me do that right? Well if any one knows how…then plz share. But otherwise…don’t talk like whiff canceling is the majority of footsies…on another note.

Kang you were talking bout how you were having trouble with Geese’s c./s.hk with ken right?

I figured out sometimes when you do random command rolls at varied ranges, Geese players…hell MOST players get confused and start to poke s.hk’s a lot…and if you recovered correctly from the roll, you can trip geese out of it, setting up crossover or whatever setups.

30

you can’t really create an opportunity to get a jump in besides a knockdown imo. jump ins are character and match up specific. we all know vega can pretty much jump in for free on anyone with the right spacing, while the shotos have a much tougher time because of their slower jump. cvs2 has become a ground game because jumping in is so punishable. it doesn’t mean jumping in is impossible or anything, it just means you have to choose wisely.

as for using low jumps, it really depends who you are using. if you have blanka or vega, low jump fk all day. if you have cammy, take it easy. otherwise, you’ll find yourself getting dped, rced, or whatever.

31

Getting punished from a failed jump in isnt always a big deal…
It makes your opponent think about one more thing when you are playing…

Jumping off a blocked/hit jab often works. But it can only work if you mix it up with something. Off a jab with some characters you can walk in jab again (either for counter hit or for combo), counter hit a sweep or a low forward, flinch and block and see if they dp, flinch and throw, walk back walk in and throw, jump for cross up, jump back to bait something… the point is you have to use your mixups in such a way so they think they know what you are doing next, or at least are thinking too much about your next move.

When you are playing 1 button wars (max range) ie with sakura fighting with roundhouses, both walking back and forth, both not trying to be predictable when throwing it out, sometimes throwing it out as soon as they are in range, and sometimes not, this allows you to walk in a bit closer occasionally (if they are expecting it to come out and it doesnt, you can walk in) or if they see that you did not poke right away, to get a counter hit. Or you can also random jump (super jump cross ups have seem to be more likely to not get punished).

Jumping isnt always to combo either, ie sometimes you only have time for an early jump roundhouse so that you land on pretty much even terms, just slightly closer…

Another thing I watch out for is situations where I feel i’ve put them in a position to use a mid/high hitting move, or a dragon punch… in which case I dont jump hehe…

Of course… jumping in a footsies situation isnt going to happen very often. Depending on your opponent it will take longer to set up, or you might get AA’d and it starts all over again… jumps happen more when you are rushing them down (effectively)…

When playing footies I just try to hold my ground. Ie dont get pushed back into the corner as obviously that severely limits your walking distance (freedome). I think about this as much as what the other person is doing (more so when im using sakura because of s.rh fights…) so - getting hit isnt always a bad thing…

32

I guess Ill drop C.ken for Honda… :sad:

But I dont know what it is about shoto’s, but they to hold the key to…

"Street… fighter… “greatness” ha ha ha… :devil:

:lame:

Iam just wondering How can u set up a jump-in?

I never really thought about it before. :confused:

This is probally what Popoblo is talking about. Maybe u guys are over-studing a little.

Its all good though. :pleased: But I wouldent mind somebody giving an example on how to setup a Jump-in. :karate: :xeye:

This may sound silly but have u guys ever let somebody jump on you a few times… to butter them up for a AA. Would this be considered a part of footies,or mindgames/both.

Old schools Player’s Ive talked to said…

Some time’s you have to “Take damage,to Give Damage”. :sweat:

33

wakeup == jump-in setup
dizzy == jump-in setup
Sagat sitting on a raged level 3 != jump-in setup

There are some very specific jump setups, such as rolento… c. mk xx scouter jump. Just look at his friggin customs.

34

:clap: :karate:

35

If you can type all that stuff about strategic risks and what not, I don’t get why you are asking how to play against Vega. I mean you answered it yourself. Be smart and jump in or roll him trying to punish your whiff and land a ken combo and win the match. If he guesses right and doesn’t poke, and AAs you, its a whopping st RH that doesn’t even knockdown. If you roll and he doesn’t stick anything out, he either throws you or cr RHs you. Wow big damage. The main reason A Vega is good IMO (and I’ve said this before) is because he has an opportunity to do decent damage while jiggling (instead of being forced to charge). He also has something to get you fuck off him if you try to go for CH setups up close once you do get in. And he build meter usually before he lets you in on him. So yea, be smart, and take risks like you said.

As for people saying you need to be so and so to play Ken. It may sound shitty but its generally pretty true. Ken loses about everyone. He is just fun to play, doesn’t change the fact that he isn’t easy to play.

36

i play ken…in casual play. at evo, i played C-ken/chun li/sagat. would i ever play that team in a tournament? NO. why? because ken and chun li are too streaky (and i hate to miss sagat’s links into super). your ken will either own people all over the place or get owned, but the times you own people will make you continue playing him. same with chun li- miss that link into kick super (or miss it as a whiff punisher), and you’re eating a massive combo/CC. the risk/reward isn’t worth it in my eyes.

that’s why it’s so fun to watch choi/daigo/dan own with ken, because most players KNOW how hard it is to actually win the tough matches with ken, and they somehow do it.

just play N-groove, it’ll solve all your problems:karate:

37

I hear good players say thing’s like… “U.S players Jump too much”

Or I hear thing’s like… I stoped jumping-in/stoped doing wake up super,and Dp’s.

It’s kind of misleading.

To never wake-up DP , or to stop jumping in all together is taking ish too far.

I guess it’s just takes experience. You cant be a 100% right all the time. It’s all about making wise decisions. :blush:

Ken is a difficult character. I dosen’t seem like a lot of people play Ken(from what Ive seen personally)on high levels.

From what I know…

Ken seem’s to do really will when you take Risk.

A Fearless/ Risk-taking Ken is something to look out for. :karate: How else are U going to get that OCV .

Turtle maybe?

38

My Ken vs Bison Groundgame Breakdown

(I’m using C-Ken)

Bison wants to walk up and far s.MK you

Effective counters:
-whiff s.LP’s shut him down completely
Bison can beat your jabs with a d.HK, but he’s taking a great risk for doing so. Good Bison players obviously know better, but don’t be suprised if a masher ever does this to your Ken.

-d.MK will keep him from advancing
Ken’s d.MK range is compareable to Bison’s s.MK range, but the speed is nearly twice as fast (4 frame startup vs Bison’s 9 frame startup). You’ll stuff Bison’s startup when you do your d.MK correctly.

-midrange qcf+HP. Bison can’t advance on your when there’s a Hadouken he needs to avoid first.

Poor counters:
-d.MP will lose cleanly to Bison’s far s.MK every time. The hitboxes just plain don’t match up in Ken’s favor. Plus Bison’s far s.MK outranges Ken’s d.MP significantly in the first place.

-far s.LK loses cleanly.

-far s.HK will stop Bison if it makes contact, however given Bison’s fast walk speed and Ken’s extremely long recovery time, I feel this is a very poor choice to keep Bison from poking you. Far s.HK should be used for punishing whiffs only.

Be careful:
-whiff RC fancy kick. If Bison has full CC meter and you’re whiffing RC kicks right in front of his face (to try and keep him from walking up and poking with s.MK), Bison can CC, slide you for absolutely free. Ken’s foot will be fully extended during the CC flash, and he will be unable to block the subsequent Bison slide xx death.

Bison is mashing on d.MK

Close/Midrange counter:
-far s.HK will beat Bison cleanly. Be cafeful Bison doesn’t go for roll, throw when your far s.HK is out there though.

-d.HK. I don’t do this very often, but just know that it’s possible to sweep Bison’s limb.

Midrange counter:
-f+HK. Be careful that you’re not so close that you’ll be stuffed though. In all those cases, you should of pressed far s.HK instead.

Half screen counter:
-qcf+HP. Keep feeding Hadoukens to Bison’s face until he realizes he should be blocking or going for something else instead of mashing all day.

Stop the Scissors Kick

ALWAYS pay attention to whether Bison is charged or not. Try your best to stay within range of the two hit Scissors Kick at all times. If you’re not within range, you ideally want a Hadouken on the screen so Bison can’t do the random Scissors. Jab Hadouken is best from full screen away. Fierce version is better at footsies range. Whenever Ken blocks the two hit Scissors, he gets a free d.MK poke. It doesn’t matter that the damage isn’t that great. What matters is that Bison isn’t hitting you, but you’re hitting him.

Punish two hit scissors
-d.MK
-d.MK xx level 3 Shippu
-level 2 punch super
-far s.LK xx fancy kick (be careful that you’re not out of range)

Bison’s d, u+P move

Shotos have a hard time against this move actually. I have a couple notes for fighting it though.

-The book says the move is +/-0 on the block. That gives the impression that Bison is almost always safe. NOT TRUE. Go for a d.MK with Ken after anytime you block this move. Bison is almost always at negative something.

-roll, dp+HP is the prefered counter(?)
I mess this up more often than I land it, but I’m pretty sure this is the best Ken can do to counter Bison’s d, u+P.

edit: Oh yeah, it’s really important that you discourage Bison from using RC scissors kick on you all day first before you’re going to start using Hadouken a lot. I walk forward and block a lot so Bison knows that if he does RC, I’m going to block and he’s going to get hit.

39

Footgames against Vega

So yeah, I’ve been studying old people’s play style…

(I’m using C-Ken)

Using the Hadouken:

-Know your ranges

Close range (Shoto d.LP distance or closer): Ken is easily stronger here and should fighting to always occupy this range.*

Midrange (about 2 character lengths, just outside max range of shoto d.MK and d.HK): Throwing Hadoukens and RC Hadoukens in Vega’s face is a powerful tactic here. You need to make sure all the Hadoukens you throw are fierce Hadoukens though. If you threw a jab Hadouken, Vega can normal jump you on REACTION, j.HK, jab, jab xx level 3 —> peace. If you had thrown a fierce/fast Hadouken on the other hand though, Vega gets hit as he leaves the ground.

Half screen (plus or minus one step from Vega’s max d.MP range): Vega is strongest at this range, and the good Vega players will do whatever they can to keep you zoned here all day. This is the most frustrating range any character, not just a shoto, can be placed at when fighting against Vega. Hadoukens are not safe AT ALL. Vega can jump on reaction to any speed Hadouken you throw and the reward you get for landing a Hadouken isn’t even that worth it. Try to bring the fight closer to Vega at this range. Whatever you do, don’t try to throw a Hadouken and not pay for it.

Full screen (where Vega’s j.HK/HP will no longer reach you): Slow Hadoukens rock the house here. You’re putting a big, space controlling projectile on the screen and forcing Vega to do something about it. What’s he going to do? Jump? Won’t reach. Super jump? Shoryuken!

*I need some help fighting against Vega’s RC crystal flash at this range. I can’t seem to throw that dumb move, and the only counter I have is to anticipate and roll. I’ve done so much work to get close though, and to do something random like going for a roll is the last thing I want to do. Vega’s RC attacks are a real threat to me up close though. Anybody have any tips to help me keep my momentum going against RC Vega up close?

40

Hey KCXJ thanks for the info about ken. I beginning to win matches versus Sagat, Vega(Claw), Bison(police), Blanka.

By the way about Vega try to keep distance at vega at first. Then as he tries to poke you hit him with a RC funky kick, if that happends vega will fall down try dash or leap behind him and hit him again with a funky kick or try to throw at him.

that’s what I did to beat vega 4 times and I really had a good winning streak today. Thanks to your tips :karate: