Well, not every character needs to have an insane throw range to excel. Obviously, Chun-li greatly benefits from hers, but thats already with the list of other shit she can abuse. Also, even if a character has a crappy kara grab in 3s they still are able to throw people a lot because of the game mechanics.So they aren’t necessarily fucked. In fact I believe someone once said the 3s cast behaves like mini grapplers because of the game mechanics.
I’d say it could be a detriment in one game, and a benefit in another imo.
Specifying a “two button” grab is sort of missing the point, in my opinion. The assignment of a two button input for the command is an arbitrary and mostly trivial issue. Case in point, three button grabs in A3 operate in the same manner. Really, it could be a one button grab that functions in the same way as well and it would not change the matter.
The actual issue that most of you are picking at is the idea of having or not having a whiff period/animation for a failed grab attempt. If you want to get really specific with game design description, it boils down to just that: does anything happen when a “throwing” command is input but the throw is not successful? Rephrased as its inverse for clarity: will the throw attempt only appear when the throw works?
In our fighting games, having a whiff for throws generally implies that there exists a command that is dedicated (at least primarily, if not exclusively) to said throwing; that is to say, this command will either always or almost always (depending on the context, the current state of the game) result in a grab attempt. In SF3, you press your two buttons and your character tries to throw. In SF4, you press your two buttons and your character tries to throw. If the proper conditions are met for the throw to be successful, the throwing will occur. If those conditions are not met, a throw whiff will occur.
Conversely, not having a whiff for throws generally implies that the designated command for throwing is actually primarily meant for something else, where this other application of the command usually overlaps its application for throwing, and the throw only happens in certain situations. In SF2, the fierce punch button’s principal function is obviously its namesake; however, it will act as a throw command under specific conditions (hold forward or back on the joystick, be within the required range of your opponent, your character must be standing/grounded and free to act, your opponent’s character must be standing/grounded and not in blockstun or hitstun). If you press fierce punch and the conditions for throwing are met, the throw will occur. If you press that button and the conditions for throwing are not met (which is most of the time in normal gameplay), you will just get yourself a big old punch instead. In terms of gameplay you could even consider the punch itself to be a primitive, representative placeholder of sorts for a throw whiff, but in terms of strategy that punch is of course far more dangerous than a throw whiff.
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I don’t remember what my point was but I’ve had enough of writing this post now.
Not necessarily. Some games have commands that have no whiff animation. eg. Yatagarasu (at least the demo I played). There are two parry buttons (low, high), but neither of them have a whiff animation. The only time you see the effect is when you actually parry a blow. (That’s a stupid design decision though).
Throws without whiff animations can work as long as they aren’t susceptible to option selects, ie. they have priority over every other move (including blocking), so pressing throw + attack always results in nothing if the opponent is out of range or in a non-throwable state. If you’re going for a tick-throw, it should be all or nothing, and you shouldn’t be able to [media=youtube]jCEH0QSI_vI[/media] your way around the opponent’s defense.
(*Interesting thing about this option select is that even if you manage to mess up the DP and throw, you’ll get an s.mk which leaves you at frame advantage!)
This is a sentence of someone who just has no clue about what he is writing about. As simple as that. One tick of any normal and ST Ryu will get the far version of the move, which is the reason no-one uses forward for that thing, but the punches. Those are not as bad as forward, but are bad enough so that Ryu gets stuffed most the time. At best, one can try after an aerial short that is right on top of him, and that’s about it.
I strongly prefer two buttons grabs over one. I absolutely hated when I did an unintentional throw in SF2. Yes, yes, I’m scrubby, bla bla bla, I don’t care what anybody says, I’m glad one button throws are gone. I also love the fact you can completely stop a throw in games like 3s, SFIV and Tekken.
shoultzula, you have much better things to do after a crossup. Namely, hit confirm cr.str into SRK (really hard, but any among ShootingD, Aniken, Gotoh or Futachan does it flawlessly), or mix up with throw (with a punch, kicks all get the far version), cr.forward xx hadouken, cr.rh, SRK (wait a split second), super (wait a split second), walk out of range or just wait if it gets blocked. Other options include wait and sweep, wait and SRK, wait and cr.forward xx red hadouken. If it is a good option, then odds are the crossup has been done too early (read wrong) and it has not been blocked. It is just a very situational thing, just like most other good normals that can be used to throw in ST. Missed throws are bad for the attacker more often than not.
If you really need a reason to complain about 1-button throws, Chun Li would be the character. But it would still be a failed argument as she is retarded with 2-button grabs anyway.
yea, I already know that. The point of this thread was to see if you liked a 1 button grab or a 2 button one. With the example I put up, its how a 1 button grab can be a bad thing allowing a double option to take place. Some people like it, I personally don’t.
Its not about the actual options after xup j.rh, it was just an example to explain my point. Which was lost long ago apparently :sad:
tick throws against a character with poor reversal moves like ST Dictator would be weakened as explained below.
old ST rules 2 things happen when dict tries to reverse with his only move (beside super) that has iF’s.
he fails to do the reversal correctly, and gets thrown for free
if he succeeds in his reversal, its invincible for 3 frames, thus getting him out of the throw attempt, but it doesn’t hit for several frames later. But because there is no whiff animation for throws, the character that tried to throw Dictator now does a normal move which stuffs Dict psycho crusher. Thus keeping Dictator cornered and in a bad situation.
technically there is a third option but it isn’t universal because all characters have different throw ranges
3)throw reversal and hope that yours gets priority
now lets take the same situation but give the thrower a 2 button throw, which would also give them a whiff animation
the first istuation remains unchanged if Bison mistimes his reversal
the 2nd one changes because now his reversal won’t be stuff by the standing normal as instead the opponent is now in a whiffing animation for his throw. Thus letting Dictator out of the tick throw set up.
However HDR Dictator has a new move with iF’s that he can use to get out of the tick throw set up. But as you can see, the 2 button throw allows for throws to not be as dominating against characters like Dictator than they otherwise would have been.
Reversal throws always have the priority, the only downsides are one risk missing the time and eating a meaty into a combo, getting ticked away from his range or getting locked him with an aerial attack and forced to block.
Other than that, ShinjiGohan has a good point. Still, Dictator has the tools to avoid getting cornered most often than not. His pokes are good and his walk speed, specials and sweep provide good ways of moving around the screen. But it takes mastery to use his moves well. Still, I am not a fan of infinite throw loops. IMHO, their removal were a good thing from HDR.
The core SF system is throw > block > attack > throw, if your designing a throw in this system, you probably don’t even want a button press (since blocking has no button press), you should just walk into a blocker and automatically throw them, much like a blocker holds back and automatically blocks if there is an attack. I can only imagine that it tested horribly and interfered with movement so we ended up with direction + button press.
With 2 button throws, you have to be more precise… yet blocking is still the same, you don’t have to block on command, you don’t have to push a button (let alone 2) and if you get thrown you can tech for 0 damage in some games, meanwhile the attacker has a less effective throw, and has to do an even more obtuse kara throw just to get some range on it. A lot of the time it’s better to just skip all that and block or avoid, taking your free combo if your opponent missed his throw, and teching if you get thrown.
The net effect of this change is that throws become weaker and blocking becomes stronger, so then you have to make other systems to compensate like guard meters and unblockable moves when you could just have good throws anf be done with it.
1 button throws. I am also a fan of throws being fundamentally different in damage and setups and having varying numbers of throw buttons, giving some characters an advantage (it is very hard to beat a DeeJay who drums his throws pretty consistently)
Also, softens > 0% damage techs, give me some sort of advantage for risking my neck to an FADC ultra