What do you mean by “dub stepping”?
Moving left and right to mess up your opponent’s spacing. I call it dub stepping because people just do it anywhere on stage like they’re in a dub step video. Few people do it correctly or with an actual strategic purpose.
When it comes to playing a defensive game, Evil Ryu is nearly the same as Ryu in that regard.
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I’m a former Ryu player who switched to Evil Ryu 3 years ago when AE first came out. Like many people I thought he was going to be this rushdown or vortex character because of his damage output and he had a dive kick. But after tinkering around with him for a while, I finally realized Capcom just made another Ryu. I mean yeah he is another Ryu, but his play style is nearly the same. He has some unique moves but in the end he does what Ryu does, zoning and footsies. You want to zone, same fireball. You want to anti-air, nearly the exact same anti-airs. You want to go in, walk forward and use your normals. Neither has a body launching move. The trade off is slower normals for damage output.
I think what you lose with Ryu, you gain more with Evil Ryu which helps more in this version of the game. Yes his sweep and cr. MK is slower, EX hado knocking down leads to Ultra or helps control space better, more health and stun. But then you gain a dive kick helps him react to DWU, damage output from footsies helps him keep up with vortex characters, hop kick to go over lows and blows up crouch tech, more mix up potential, etc. I think they were in the same tier in AE 2012, but I think Evil Ryu is a little better in this version. Against each other it’s a 5-5 match IMO.
But back to what Daigo said, I agree with his sentiment. Ryu didn’t get what he needs and their are so many ways around fireballs that hurt Ryu more than probably any other fireball character. I guess asking for that joudan kick was too much, that was have been really nice. But realistically if he just got some of the things that some of you guys already mentioned, I don’t you guys would mind if they took away the stuff he actually did get like EX SRK having more juggle potential or canceling HK tatsu from j. MP. He needs good buffs to offset the DP, FADC nerf and DWU which destroyed his safe jump set up from sweep. And what he did get doesn’t get the job done.
Those are really good points. I hadn’t thought about the advantages of Ryu’s faster sweep. Speaking of Evil Ryu doing damage by going in, I feel like most of this Evil Ryu vs. Ryu talk comes from Umehara making the switch, as though his choice of character is sacrosanct and unequivocally decides which character has better utility. What I find interesting is that Daigo has often played his Ryu in SF4 very offensive, often going in rather than zoning the opponent out. Not always, but often. I watched a few recent matches of Daigo using Evil Ryu and I remarked how similar his Evil Ryu ‘felt’ compared to his Ryu: youtu.be/Zllr_mVUpxg
That was basically what I was basing my thoughts on, as well as the fact that because of his identical fireball, uppercut and tatsu he can be played in such a similar manner while being capable of putting out more damage. You could still play Evil Ryu as Ryu, and than just adjust when the opponent made a mistake and maximize a superior punish. Right? You could still force the opponent to make unfavorable risks as Evil Ryu, just as Ryu does.
5 frame sweep as a punish means nothing. Eryu’s s.mp is 5 frames and leads to big punishes because it combos into lk axe kick. FADC that and he gets a near 400 dmg punish.
Eryu actually just does almost everything as good or better than Ryu does.
You missed the context. Consider stuff like your opponent’s spacing and your punish attack’s reach. Perhaps your opponent isn’t free that day when it comes to footsies…
Wow just like I predicted Daigo got destroyed. Ironically by John Choi’s Ryu 4 straight rounds. Is John Choi just better or is does Ryu beat E.Ryu?
Daigo didn’t get destroyed, every match was a nail biter that had both players dropping their combos…
Here’s the match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA9y69Zyi0E
Daigo respected John too much maybe?
John jumped 4 times with 2 payoffs to diago’s 1.
Only match specific problem for Daigo I saw was Evil Ryu’s slower crouch forward seems to be an issue. It got stuffed:
First round 3 times
Second round 3 times (first one was a trade with sps)
third round 2 times
fourth round 2 times
Combo drops killed Daigo third and fouth round. Third round, if John would have finished his combo, not much would have changed. If Daigo would have finished his, (even if adding in the damage John would have done earlier from his combo dropped) all else being the same Daigo would have killed John off with one of the two throws he did. Fourth round, if daigo would have finished his combo, john would have been in a chip situation that might have changed end result.
Daigo looks like he blew most of his meter too. The first two rounds he pretty much only did ex axe kicks instead of ex fireballs and last two rounds his meter was blown on combo drops. I don’t know if he opted not to use ex fireball because they don’t knockdown, but that’s what I feel is his reason for not doing them.
On top of everything, John did a great job as ryu. He kept E.Ryu out and left few openings. Young Choi activated.
To me, it looks like Daigo is still working out the kinks in his new character. I’m sure that once he cleans up all his high level strategy/execution stuff, matches like this will look more one sided in E.Ryu’s favor.
Choi also basically won both rounds of game 2 with a clutch forward fierce into HP SRK. That gave him the lead when he was pretty low on life with the next hit finishing Daigo off each time. Great reads or just a couple of lucky guesses? Either way it worked out for him.
The more I play this game and compare it to super turbo. The more I realise Ryus fireball becomes a burden.
I was playing a against a rolento with Ultra 2. He keeps buffering it expecting me to throw a fireball, he hit me once.
Then I came across a Makoto, she does the buffering shuffle aiming for the ultra which jumps off the wall. Shuts down my fireballs.
Then I play an Elena who slides right throw the fireballs and the EX Rhino Horn which has full fireball invincibility.
Thats just three characters. USF4 (and SF4) has too many character can shut down fireballs too easily in this game.
Why dont they ever fall for my fake fireball st.LK I swear no one ever falls for it lol.
Three types of reactions to fireballs:
Reaction to the crouch.
Reaction to a crouch than a motion.
Reaction to seeing the fireball.
You have to identify and learn to bait each one. You also have to learn about tension. Forcing tension on people will make them jumpy. A way to explain this with your example of Rolento buffering ultra 2 is: When you have the lead and he is buffering ultra, if time is at around 50, he doesn’t feel much tension and will wait until he sees a fireball. If time is around 15, He can’t miss that one opportunity he might have to ultra you. You can definitely bait him at that point. Also, if you don’t do unsafe fireballs, than your opponent doesn’t have anything to fear. They know you will shut yourself down. You have to make sure that you can squeeze one out while they aren’t paying attention. I’m not going to go through a whole write up for this shit, figure it out. I saw you matches from a year ago, you’re competent…
You might be right about the tension cos they seem to get baited a lot more on an arcade machine. I guess when moneys on the line
they take it more seriously.
It does suck, but it’s not like it’s game over when you can’t throw a fireball. If they’re 3/4 screen buffering, you can almost always just walk up on them for free. Get to a range where you can poke with your fireball and you can throw them again. Also, the fake fireball also needs to be set up. You have to fake fireball at a time that you would normally throw a fireball. Like, play vs. a Rog. C.mk fireball him out and then throw a second every time until he gets meter. Now that he’s got meter, c.mk fireball him out and fake fireball. He’s watching for it and wants to ex through it. Not the best example cuz Rog can do lp dash punch and hit the startup of the second fireball, but those are the types of times it works. Like Finkle said, you kinda have to throw unsafe fireballs in order to bait out anti fireball stuff. The trick is just doing it when they’re not looking or can’t do anything because they haven’t got meter or charge.
These days i had the chance to try a lil bit SFxTK… don’t like the game at all, but it will be so cool if USF4 Ryu got mule kick (hcf+K) and dat mini-GoukenStyleShinSRK (cool as fuck and 200 dmg) as srk ex version
Also because EXmule kick into full U2 sound like epicness
That’s the problem though, if USF4 Ryu had it then it would be too good. He may have one version that is safe on block and can still be canceled from low forward. Now he does more damage on hit and chip with a knock down and push back with low forward donkey kick compared to low forward fireball. And since he’s -2(just a example) and right next to his opponent, you have to fear yolo DP’s now when you want to counter poke. EX version gives him mid screen Ultra and resets. He would have a stronger mix up game now. Maybe one version doesn’t knockdown(lets say the LK version). This means he gets a move to fish for EX red focus or maybe he can FADC to extend the combo if it’s +3 or more after a forward dash. Depending on how his hypothetical donkey kick would work, it would completely change his play style and arguably make him one of the best characters in the game.
Honestly I’m OK with it, this change would actually make me start playing Ryu again(I main Evil Ryu). But everybody else who mains other characters would start bitching though and probably try to get it nerfed so hard that it becomes a useless move. And maybe Capcom doesn’t want to give Ryu this move either because they feel it would change him too much. A lot of people asked for it in the Unity thread(including me) but they didn’t bring the move over.
Idk, how does mule kick change ryu’s game plan?
Everything I’m saying is completely hypothetical so I’m not taking SFxT frame data and using them in USF4.
Capcom seems to be into making the different strengths of each special move more different. So maybe all versions of joudan kick doesn’t knockdown. If the LK version doesn’t knockdown and is safe or safe enough, I could see Ryu players doing low forward into that for more damage on chip or hit. Or maybe they’ll use one of the MK or HK version if they’re safer. Like I said, this would give him ways to combo into EX red focus to land either of his Ultras. Or maybe if you FADC the light one it’s +3 or more on hit so you can extend combos that way. Ryu gets nothing but sweep when he hits a near max range cr. MK, Hado, FADC.
Lets say one of the moves leaves him at -2 or -3, now he gets something similar to Ken’s gimmick with step kick. Basically low forward > joudan kick and DP their counter poke. Sure it’s just a gimmick, but he doesn’t have this gimmick right now so it’s better than not having the option. EX joudan would lead to Ultra or resets mid screen. He can do what Sakura does, except he has a much better fireball and anti airs to work with. Maybe cool set ups can be found with a reset that will potentially make him a somewhat dangerous mix up character now with just one bar.
In the end he can be played the same exact way but the potential to add so much more to his game plan and versatility could greatly change by giving him this one special move. Like I said, I’m all for it. I loved the joudan kick when I played SFxT for a week. But I can see why Capcom doesn’t want to give it to him. They want him to be Mr. honest and boring. But it would have been cool to have a Ryu that has some BS of his own to work with. Or maybe the move sucks, so forget everything I just said. But I prefer to play theory fighter with a good version of it.
ryu is still solid but got relatively weaker due to system changes. evil ryu’s health buff somehow makes regular ryu obsolete, that was uneccesary. ryu is maybe too honest in that game, so many other chars providing so much more options and dmg…
capcom should have buffed ryu a bit more in one of these two directions:
a, give him joudan kick for new possibilites. should include ex wallbounce, but only from punish situations
or
b, buff his fundamentals even more by a sligh dmg buff (e.g tatsu, solar plex and main pokes), slight meter gain buff for more options, some hit/hurtboxes and frames e.g cr.mk, some minor meterless juggles in the corner after ex hado, etc…
if i remember right, at the time of the capcom unity balance threads, the system changes like srk -5, dwu and red focus were not yet announced? no wonder players claimed ryu is good enough and does not need anything… that was wrong, as consequences of system changes and buff of other chars were not known at that time.
Too good i don’t know, better and so cause of whining/bitching sure… but whatever, peoples will find a reason to bitch anyway 
Keep in mind that after all these years of SF4 i will like see in general more new moves/options (but still playing SF4, see SFxTK catch me a couple of hours and then get me bored), example i liked also see them give the knees throw to Ken (neutral throw) and shoulder tackle special to Abel (charge b, f+P) and i don’t even play these two characters
I was thinking that ex mule can be a reason to encourage more Ryu players chose U2, also because SRK FADC U2 was kinda the USF4 attempt to do it, but seem not working (if anything at this point as U2 dude i like more the exRFA option)
I don’t know, maybe an easy/lazy way to nerf a lil bit the ex mule->U2 option was just give 1 dmg to the wall bounce itself to fuck up the dmg scaling (and if needed even split the ex kick dmg itself into 2 hits), they already took that way for some characters
And for the non-ex version(no bounce) i don’t know, i just like the idea of the mule kick for Ryu, with the opponent trying to break the zoning and get foot-bitchslapped back to the other side of the screen
Overall i can understand and agree on them be not so enthusiast about spend hours and hours($$$) of work and testing to introduce something than will please some and start whining more… but that’s the kind of vicious circle that stop SF4 from get some new moves
Again, i speak as a dude that as long i get some new tools for my characters i will not mind if others characters get new stuff too… if anything i will get the double amount of new contents, playing as and playing against
Hell, even if my characters get none of these hypotethical “new moves” i will not be so pissed (sure a lil bit i will be, but not to te point of jump on classic internet crusades against it)
If anything the irony is i believe that if XYZ character get a new move (maybe a good one but not SO good) and a huge big buff to an existing one (think dat mega buff that make the character fly up in tier list), many peoples will still start bitch a lot about the new move
I think it will be an easier target, where even an extreme buff to something already existing kinda feel more safe from theyr point of view
Kinda sad
I think mule kick would almost turn him into Evil Ryu. He’d be able to hit confirm anything into good damage. He’d be top teir again and Capcom has made it pretty clear they don’t really want that. He was top teir in vanilla but upper middle in all four updates since. I’d love it, I’m just saying. It doesn’t seem like a direction they want to go. He doesn’t really need it anyway. It’s not like he’s bad. He can beat everyone, you just have to be better than the other player and know the match.