Dan Dinh from Epik (the favorites who lost in the WCG Finals) woke up the next morning and gave an account of the Finals 
Cool, itās from a tristana playerās perspective (GHRRK THE JERK should read it). Excited for the rest to be finished as itās interesting to hear about high level tourney play in a game I understand thatās not a fighter.
Fixing comp in a paycheck or 2, will get prob get both HoN and LoL to see which I like betterā¦
Edit: Wtf no denies, you can teleport home always, and you donāt lose gold when you die? Aw HELL NO. This brawl/sf4/halo2/super mario auto-play bastardized dota will get no love from me. (Hanging out the passenger side)
pffffffft i hate the game industry.
With that said, Iāll still be trying it since we got Elias the biased and Ghrrk the planeswalker playingā¦but Iām pretty sure Iāll be on that HoN more. Holla!
Secretly Iāve been playing HoN on-and-off for like five months. Never played dota.
Honestly I donāt necessarily blame LoL for being easymode because HoN is fucking brutal with the steepest learning curve of any game I have ever played.
No denies is pretty wack though.
Can I convince anyone to play DFO again? Come on Elias.
I do ask around quite a bit about HoN from HoN players or at least DotA from DotA players that all happen to play LoL. In my case, I really donāt know because I didnāt play DotA and I havenāt played HoN (but Iām really looking forward to Icefrogās game at Valve, which has the name DotA reserved for it).
Most of the players Iāve talked to, that have played both, tell me that at first it was whacked to not have denying, but that the game is fine without it. Most people do say it makes the game more aggressive overall and the game moves faster as a result. But yeah, there are also a few Iāve talked to that wish it was there. But a large majority of people that complain about a lack of creep deny are people that didnāt play LoL or didnāt play it much at all. But there are a few that have played it and do miss it.
I havenāt heard of anyone complaining about Gold penalty on death (in HoN and DotA, if you die, you lose Gold) or random terrain.
Good thing about HoN is that it supposedly is a clone of DotA and their website does tell you which heroes are pretty much the exact same and which items are the exact same as DotA so for hardcore DotA players, youāre set from the get-go and your skills will carry over. Heck, itās even rumored (well more or less confirmed) that Icefrog did have a role in the development of HoN so you can say it officially is the DotA sequel until the Valve game comes out.
For me, whether itās āeasymodeā or not, I really love playing League of Legends and itās definitely provided challenges for me and a lot of exciting gameplay. Itās still a pretty hardcore experience as far as I can tell.
The thing that turns me off of HoN especially (and DotA nowadaysāas opposed to when it was gaining traction) is that a lot of the people that are for HoN present themselves as jerks or assholes a lot and it does seem like HoN encourages it in its design. From the perspective of a guy like me who didnāt play DotA, all I hear about is how hardcore it is and how hostile the environment is to a player thatās just trying to get betterābecause theyāre not hardcore enough to hang with the big boys and nobody is patient enough (except a RL friend or a friend from another community) to help you grow over time.
Certainly, a lot of the proponents of HoN donāt make themselves welcoming in League of Legends discussions. I rarely see a decent form of dialogue about itāI usually just see frustrations that LoL is more accessible and people play it because itās free. Whereas I think better arguments come from explaining why Creep Denying is better (though Iād rather hear it from someone who plays a lot of both LoL and DotA and/or HoN). Or why despite how damn hard it is to get better in HoN, the good battles at high rank might be exhilirating in a way that LoL isnāt (I havent heard this argument yet, but looking forward to someone explaining it because it sounds like thatās how a true HoN player feels).
I think DotA/HoN vs. LoL discussions should have good arguments and discussions about how the flow of the game is different and which skillsets get tapped into. Instead, I usually get trolling posts like āfuck this easymode game of LoL. No creep denying? WTF!!!ā which makes HoN players sound stupid even though theyāre not.
I am mostly open to HoN, and part of that sentiment is a regret from not having played DotA during its time (I had some college friends and tons of Thai friends encouraging me over the yearsāI just didnāt give it a try and I regret that). Butā¦ in my time with LoL, itās not too often that I have to deal with real assholes in Solo Queue gamesābut when it happens it can be frustrating (thank goodness for /ignore sometimes) butā¦ HoN has always given me the impression that itās WAY WORSE IN HONāthat Iāll be dealing with the biggest assholes even when Iām just trying to learn the game those players love so much. And certainly in LoL discussions where HoN players or would-be-HoN players pop up, theyāve never helped with regards to that perspective.
You also end up finding articles like this from newcomers that have tried both.
It is sad that when the most encouraging mentions of HoN for a newcomer like myself has been from friends who havenāt played it yet but are excited to try it out. Actually, one HoN player was encouraging to me, told me itās great because it is like DotA and the graphics are really good. So that was one of the best encouragements.
But HoN looks like a really good game (though I donāt know if itāll run on my machine actually) and thereās no real excuse for not playing DotA (though I lost my Frozen Throne CD-Key, but itās not like I couldnāt go find one off the net). But it does feel like itās too late to get into DotA because the environment āsounds likeā itās either youāre hardcore at DotA or GTFO.
The pricetag of HoN (lower than most games) is not a barrier to me. At the moment, the barrier has been the reputation the community has and even moreso, that most HoN players have only helped me form a worse opinion about it.
All that said, Iām still having an awesome time with LoL and for a newcomer like me, itās not an easy game. I think only easy/accessible by comparison.
And at least on paper, I think I like Hero harassment and pressure over creeps as opposed to what sounds like super defensive play (unless you have godlike skills already) encouraged by creep denying.
-Chanchai
P.S. Though this message was a reply to Duggish, itās not a judgment on him at all. Itās just kind of my frustration with a lot of the HoN/LoL discussion in general which often have as much reasoning as 360 vs. PS3 discussions. Iām pretty excited that Duggish is planning to play both games and he can help argue the merits of both games and he is someone in this community. If anyone posts in the HoN thread I created or a different one, I plan to read those.
P.S.S. Looking forward to hearing more about Elliotās experiences with HoN too Whatās DFO? Ahhā¦ Dungeon Fighter Online? Have an account, havenāt started yet 
Jest P.S. At some point, some people might just say āscrew creeps and basesā¦ Bloodline Champions!ā
Episode 1 of Ring of Champions is up.
Just started watching it so I canāt say muchā¦ except it starts with an overly dramatic breakfast shot
update: and Singapore has a team of chicksā¦ called PMS Asteriskā¦
Another update: I hope the finals will show the match though. But Iām guessing the producers arenāt competitive players (not that that should really be expected)? Weāll see. But they donāt show much of the matches.
Haha, nice shield. No need for those with me though, I can tell your intent with your post and itās clearly amiable.
As for LoL vs HoN vs DotAā¦I obviously canāt comment out of experience yet, but you can essentially relate the changes to our own fighting games. Thoughts:
DotA
[details=Spoiler]In DotA, the metagame had progressed to a point where the match isnāt about the kill so much as it is controlling time/space (sounds spacey, haha)
Creep Denies:
**Time - **First of all you deny their experience. This helps dictate the flow of the entire game, by limiting their options as they progress. Higher level = stronger, more abilitiesā¦ ADVANTAGE.
**Space - **By utilizing creep denies you also allow the enemy creeps to advance closer to your tower, where you+lane partner have the advantage in both farming AND harassing, with a safe fall back plan when needed.
Being able to influence WHICH way the creep flow was progressing is known as map control. Being able to fully utilize this aspect changes games dramatically, from being able to turtle, tower rush, pressure their base from one side (splitting their heroes up, pincers) or for creating diversions, this can really only be attained by proper creep denial.
**Farming/Meta -**In DotA you only really last-hit the creeps, your own to deny, and theirs to get the money. This micro for farming created a metagame revolving around knowing how much dmg a move could do, timing your shot to get the kill, and using specials to surprise farm.
*Mastering this is just the basics. *
Then you bring in double shooting creeps with your lane ally, purposefully mistiming your shot so they try to deny but the creep lives -then itās yours for free, spreading your shots around so they canāt deny them all (only to aoe them all anyways)
ā¦and of course taking their minds off of THEMSELVES because theyāre focusing so hard, that you press the offense and disable while your ally comes out of the woods.
You play footsies to get the jump in.
Faster travel time and not losing gold? This is just a means of a less severe punishment for fucking up. Itās just like fighters, older games granted far more advantage and reward than games of the current generation. It allows for more mistakes and a ācomebackā potential (which is actually just an EASIER comeback potential) that players need in order to stay interested. Otherwise the game requires ātoo much workā or is ātoo hardā to stick with. ULTRA COMBO FINISH! ā¦
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In the end gaining and keeping the advantage is, in essence, what victory IS in all games. The older generation of games stemmed such fierce competition because it took a killer instinct and dedication to achieve victory. Games these days take a lot of that away, and itās reflected in EVERY genre of gaming out there.
TvC vs Marvel
Super Street Fighter 4 vs. ST
Brawl vs. Melee
Halo vs Unreal
Call of Duty vs CS 1.6
LoL vs DotA
Itās basically just like any competitive game typeās roots: A ruthless intellectual deathmatch; a tank of blood, full of sharks.
ā¦then someone came along and threw an ocean of water in the tank and added a million guppies.
All the hard work and dedication put into something, be it the mental meta, or the technical skills worked at for so longā¦only to have the times move along and water everything down so that even the guppies, with no killing intent or scars proving themselves, can play too. Itās frustrating to anyone who really put work into a scene or community, or just into the game itself.
Difference is, players either hang onto that and become bitter losers who canāt seem to settle on playing the new games or sticking to their guns; and there are players who just make their choice and are content, enjoying whatever it is they do.
I try to maintain the middle ground. I donāt expect either game to be DotA because, well, theyāre not. So I know not to expect that. Expectations only lead to letdown, so Iāll be viewing each game as they are: themselves. Whichever I vibe with more, Iāll be playing. Iāll always have a Frozen Throne CD to fire up (and very likely will) whenever I want to play DotA, but the fact remains: You can either move with the flow and establish a new home, or you can tread water. But treading gets you nowhere.
Anyways, why am I so mouthy in my posts? Way too passionate about typing XDā¦hopefully be joining you guys in a few months, then Iāll see whatās up with these gamesā¦gotta say that for LoL, Jester looks like my old favorite remadewhile Fiddlesticks, Blitzcrank, Veigar and Twisted Fate all sound like legit Muggish charactersā¦this guy is playing at work, coincidentally. Or not? The plot thickensā¦
I played dota for roughly 6 years and played the HoN beta but currently play LoL for a few reasons.
- time limit LoL games are much shorter and this matters to me a lot since I get most of my game time in between classes, work, chilling with friends/ssf4/BBCS
- I realize the draw for denies and no one would be happier than me to have them in LoL, but I only truly miss it on towers. Now I was extremely good at denies in dota racking up around 20-35 just in early game laning so its not because I āsuck.ā The reason I donāt really mind it not being in LoL is it allows me to be more aggressive and focus on the opposing hero/heroes more instead of worrying about both sets of creeps i worry about 1 and the heroes. This makes LoL a more fast paced game and still allows me to dominate, still needs tower denies though.
- Fast paced farming in LoL as most of you know the cap is 18 this allows minimal need for jungling and late laning. It progresses the game a lot faster instead of having those guys that farm during team fights and all during the game prolonging it. It puts enough emphasis in farming with getting buffs or dragon but also encourages you to keep playing.
Now HoN is the more in-depth game, but I would not consider it harder just longer to learn. As a dota player I picked HoN up day 1 grabbed Sand Wraith (spectre in dota) and raped 14-1 in my first game. LoL grabbed Nunu first game went 1-3, and was a little confused. They are both about equally as hard it just comes down to what you know. After that is level a good player will dominate the same in either game imo.
It doesnāt seem to me like a problem to not lose gold when you die.
Your opponents gain gold when they kill you. And if you die, obviously you donāt gain gold for the period that you remain dead, so that also leads to a gap in resources. So really I donāt see why youād think that the game is āeasy modeā for not taking gold away when you die.
I mean, it might be for other reasons. Just not that one.
Thanks for the awesome reply, Duggish
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on how the lack of creep-deny plays into LoL though. I like having to harass or even gank heroes for the resource controlāand utilizing the minions (yes, in a simpler way, but still effective) through taunts or pulling the opponent into my half of the field and drawing early game aggro to them. It sounds simpler than what youāre describing, but the result is still interesting fights in the laning phase. And I find the matchups as definitely things to learn and deal with in laning in the harassment game.
Generally the super safe way to play the laning phase is to last-hit only to either keep things in balance or on your side of the field that exists between the towers. But thatās also why harassing becomes valuable as a way to strip resources, but itās hard (I imagine itās also really hard on DotA). And the matchups still apply of course, as always. And not everyone plays the super safe way, Iām guessing in ranked everyone gets into the harassment game so there are fights right away. Only guessing though.
That said, on competitive gamesāMindgames vs. Skill has always been an interesting balance, and also momentum. Some people here know that Iām the Virtua Fighter guy. For me, VF allows a lot of mindgames because the initiative is always changing in that game and you have to work with that. That said, I do feel that Street Fighter and Tekken (outside of Rage mode) reward more skill by giving a really strong advantage for the player with faster reflexes and sharper responses in the moment.
With VF, the game has traditionally been loaded with option selects and active forward moving defensive options and giving a decent advantage for blocking most of the moves in the game. This is kind of why the game turns around a lot and even a player at almost no health can work his way back up. Skill definitely matters in VF, but mindgame can be leveraged if you have just enough skill relative to your opponent. There are ways to āplay All Inā against opponents you know have more skill than youāessentially forcing them to play 50/50 with high risk-high reward. But you are also given the space to choose your moments.
Anyways, to more address what you were saying with all of this. I actually do like some of the changes being made to Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown. Itās weird because all of my years of Option Selects are going to not be as relevent because they simplified the throwing system in a way, but ultimately the mindgame is fundamentally the same (the number of direction options are more or less the sameābut they placed restrictions on soft layer of option selects). The theme of the game also seems to be more risk and more reward.
But I think I understand what youāre saying overall about the direction of competitive games and what not, but still the thrill of competition and learning a game is very fun for me. And even when the scene has slowed, I never really let that stop me from playing VFāand that game has alwyas dealt with a smaller community that the rest. Iām just glad I traveled a lot for it and played people from around the world in that game and stay in touch with some of them
To be honest, I think I tread middle ground as well. I play my old games a lot actuallyāand if someone brings up VF or VOOT, Iām so game. But I really do enjoy the new games, even if theyāre not what the old games were to me. Itās just that times always change and I always see things go from one end to another.
I meanā¦ look how drastic the change was from Quake 1 (insanely fast with a super advantage to top guy, usually leading in kills by a margin of 40+)
ā> Quake 2 (super slow, complete map control and matching the weapon to the area of the map for added control)
ā> Quake 3 (kind of something in between the two that turned itself into its own game).
And I loved all three of these games for what they had to offer competitive FPS gameplay. But they were all so radically different and definitely pissed off much of the previous generationās community.
Granted, the Quake 1 fans eventually found the first Unreal Tournament and eventually Painkiller
Anywaysā¦ BACK TO League of Legends chat!
-Chanchai
P.S. Damn I miss Yosuke tooā¦ But at least we message each other once in awhile hehe. Crazy Yotaku
Oh itās not, really. Donāt get me wrong, I was merely pointing out the major differences in the gameplay and arguably WHY so many players (just the outspoken bitter ones, really) donāt seem to vibe with LoLā¦and the gold part just factors into how much less leeway older games tend to give players for messing up is all.
This is the truth!
So how is LoLās (does the acronym get less humorous as you type it? I keep smirking) matchmaking/rating system? Pretty much the biggest downfall to DotA and the reason (outside of popularity, obviously) for the new games.
Wow, thanks a lot for your take on that!
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LoL always draws a smirk when you type it. But you know people will remember itā¦ lolā¦ Yeah, see, I just thought about how silly it was again there
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I shouldnāt/canāt answer that question. All I can say is that:
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from my side: Summoner Level 1-30 is a great way to impose a learning time in the gameāso players have a better chance at learning the game from the bottom up without knowing how the ranking system works. It MOSTLY (not completely) encourages some experimentation and often creates a shield for people learning the game. The downside of 1-30 is sometimes itās also loaded with Smurf accounts from banned players and play will obviously be disorganizedāso you might as well just experiment and learn.
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Runes- I like the rune system BUTā¦ it does force you to specialize in a role for a very long time because of how much time you have to invest to earn runes. I like this actually, but some people that want to get straight to ranked play right away hit a block with this slow barrier. Itās almost another way for you to try to learn a specialization before committing to another, but itās not like youāre gonna start tanking with a small pool of runes that help you. The metagame is great for me, but itās a slow barrier for super competitive players.
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ELO - I like that they use an ELO system. But Iāve heard of Low ELO Hell (I always think DLL Hell when I hear this term) and that might be discouraging for some. I think Iāve heard overall that the ranking and competitive system is better in HoN than LoL. But I personally have a lot of faith in LoL in the longrun regarding competitive play. But Iām not there yet, so canāt say anything with any validity.
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As always, Premade is kind of the only way to go if youāre truly competitive. But at least they separate the ranking between Queueing and Premades?
-Chanchai
I hate that thereās 15 posts with terms nobodyās bothered to explain. Creep denying? Is that killing your own creeps? That sounds fucking obnoxious. I like the mindgame that the creeps are just there and the strategy behind how far youāre willing to extend to try to get dem experience points/gold (which you still do by last-hitting, ideally) rather than just being a little bitch and sitting there killing your own guys to make your lane opponentās life a boring hell.
Iām glad as hell I picked the easier mode of the two. I never in my life could stand RTS style games. At all. This game is enough to the point that I can get into it, and to me thatās tight. Iām sorry but Iām not trying to get into ANOTHER game that takes me 10 fucking years of practice to even keep up with the competitive players. Nope. No thanks. Wasted enough of my youth with these silly fighting games! :lol:
As an old school fighting game player I can vibe with being frustrated if they dumb your favorite game down a bit, but from the sounds of it itās not like LoL completely destroyed the scene (or at all) or REPLACED the game like a cough certain game we play now. So really, the bitter assholes should have very little to bitch about. Less ridiculous painstakingly slow (well not slow, butā¦ dragged out) gameplay and more focused on just working together as a team? Sounds good to me. I donāt care if itās not quite as deep or whatever. 20-45 minute matches are about all I can take. I canāt imagine how much a clutch back-and-forth game would last in either of the other games if thereās no level cap (or a higher one) and you play defensively and kill your own fucking mobs. Killing your own mobs is like having a life lead with Ibuki and doing nothing but jump back kunai. Sure it might win, but youāre kind of a lameass.
The only things I donāt like are runes and some of the people who play (i.e. Master Yi players on the whole). I understand the need for runes, not only can it bring in income (for the people who are okay with spending real money rather than spending time playing to get points) for the company who needs it for a free game, but it adds that level of customization that people probably desire. To me, Iād rather the characters all be even - if I pick cheap ass Ezrael, Iām just as cheap as the other teamās cheap ass Ezrael. Iām just salty because I have character ADD and would rather buy new champions than small buffs to my characters in the form of runes.
Oh, and a couple buggy issues I have. Right clicking on the map will move you to said location - cool. Except for the fact that on MY screen (dunno if this happens to others), it will show me about 5 seconds-worth of movement away from my goalā¦ when in actuality I have already gotten there and either stood there dying, or I have run EVEN FURTHER THAN I CLICKED into enemy territory and Iām typically at about 40% health with several debuffs and snares. My screen just hiccups and is like SYKE LOL YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE BEHIND YOUR TURRET BUT YOUāRE IN THE FRAY! WITH A SQUISHY MAGE!!
So if anyone else has that problem, donāt actually click fully on your destinationā¦ stop yourself (you can press the S key to āstop all actionsā which I wish I knew about from the start) and just hold right click and manually direct yourself the rest of the way.
That, and my cooldown timers. Thereās four settings, and Iāve tried them all. None of them work properly (and AFAIK this is a problem only I have - wtf?). Cool, my ult is up in 30 seconds, it says. 3ā¦ 2ā¦ 1ā¦ mashes the R key because I really need my ult
this skill is not ready
this skill is not ready
this skill is not ready
this skill is not ready
and then about 10-20 seconds AFTER the cooldown timer says itās cooled downā¦ THEN itās actually cooled down. Fucks me up so much. Ah well, free game is free. It just sucks because if your ult isnāt something you aim, like itās just something you toggle, the only fucking way I can tell if itās truly up (if itās questionable) is to try to cast it and potentially waste it.
Since when did you forget that you play to win the game? <3
Yo Mechanica I havenāt had any of those issues at all 
maybe try re-installing?
Just letting everyone know, an SRK Room has been created in LoL Chat.
Itās private, but all you have to do is:
- Click on the dialogue box under your Friendās List.
- Click on the + Room button.
- The room name is: āSRKā
- Optional: Click on the settings icon in the room chatās interface and set to Autojoin on Startup.
I still love posting on Forums though, but Iāll pop myself on the SRK Room
Speak for yoāself! I play foā fun. But addressing the point, I understand that if the game is to be played like that, itās to be played like that. Iām glad I donāt have to be that defensive when I play this game. Iām not saying people shouldnāt play that game like that. Iām just glad you canāt play this game like that.
Its amazing when you have a team that will actually take advantage of a tank. Tank runs in screaming, preferably with some giant threat sticker on him (in my case, Nasus ult), enemy team panics and focuses him, and then the rest of your team drops in and mops the floor with them all.
We need to get team SRK going for reals.
Now Iām trying to decide tonightā¦HALO reach, Super4 or LoL