I’m pretty sure they aren’t running into bad match ups for poison, like Dhalsim.
Oh crap, I accidentally read “on hit” when I read that about EX rekka thinking it was block, so my bad. I know overhead is pretty unsafe and honestly pretty reactable, but if you do it very late in its active frames it becomes very safe, and it has a ton of active frames. Her uppercut might be bad but she still has A uppercut, and that’s so important. Imagine if el fuerte, rolento or makoto had a bad uppercut, they would become significantly better. And I might be wrong again about this, but I compared the frame data and poison’s and rose’s are the same # of frames, with comparable range.
About the normals, she’s definitely not vega/bison or fei when it comes to normals, but she has range and cancellability via cr.mk/mp. cr.mp has a better hitbox than cr.mk and is only a couple of pixels away in terms or range. Her walkspeed is definitely an issue, she has to move around like sagat in my opinion. Her cr.mp does well against twin divekicks. And yes she has hard combos, but so do a lot of other top tier characters like ibuki, or e.ryu. This is irrelevant imo, especially since they’re easily plinkable.
About her close range pressure, she definitely is not a frametrap/mixup character at all (unless somebody masters the LMT crossups), but at the same time unless your character has divekicks or command grabs, fast overheads or low/throw invincible move like rose close.mk they’re gonna have a hard time opening players up in the current meta. The fact of the matter is, frametraps are a very inconsistent way of punish cr.tech. Anyway, if you’re going for a mixup then there’s not reason to go for cr.lp over close.lk since it links to cr.fierce, can still OS backdashes and has better frame advantage.
For what she has, she’s definitely a contender for top 5. The way you are talking, you could make yun or e.ryu look like bad characters.
or bison, or vega, seth even. blanka is a fucking neusance and gouken outshines you with fireballs and his counter blows up meaty fireballs. akuma, oni and evil ryu can’t be safe jumped and have multi hitting projectiles to hold you at full screen neutral jumping in the fireball war, because our fireballs recover well but have bad start up which is great for the bad start up multi layered fireballs they throw. akuma gets a free teleport, you have to OS u1 to stop it, and he can teleport forward to screw up the os aswell. bison’s crouch tech shuts down normal lmt use, and first hit of rekka. vega especially with his walk speed, kara throw, normals are better and 3 frame and 4 frame cr.lp/cr.mp punish everything. she can’t do shit to his wall dive shenanigans other then attempt an air to air and get thrown or baited, or teleport which just pushes you into the corner as he falls and gets in your face. dhalsim and seth can sit back and go dead even with full screen fireballs, while holding poison off with stretchy arms hitting her while she fireballs and dodging her fireball in the process. and getting easy jump ins from poison to anti air with sim’s knee or seths dp.
Can someone PLEASE give this man/woman a f%&king medal!? THANKYOU!
I have to say I HEAVILY disagree with all of this.
It’s better to have a bad uppercut? To be honest I would rather have no uppercut at all rather than that trash she was given. I played a few matches today and a HUGO straight jumped through the mk. KBG midscreen and straight dizzied me like nothing happened. And as others have said, I’ve been attacked or knocked down out of it even the moment she gets off the floor. What point is there to an uppercut if you have a 50/50 chance that it hits even when it is clearly touching the opponent?
As for her AA’s are good, but they certainly are not great either. You have to time everything perfectly, and when she is exposed to divekick heavy characters like Yun, Rufus, and such, you are almost screwed, especially if you are stuck at the wall. We know st. mp and cr.mp are good, but it doesn’t help that you may or may not hit them and even worse when you trade and it’s not in your favor.
Yeah her fireball game is essential and very good…unless you’re facing characters that have moves that can slide under or run through them and knock her out (i.e. Balrog, Ibuki, Blanka)
Even worse for her is her riding crop. Vega’s claw and Rolento’s pole do well and their hits follow their reach, yet Poison’s reach is shrunk by half because the opponent has to be almost passed the wind trail to be registered as a hit.
I don’t understand where this top 5 stuff is coming from because it either has to be people playing against others who have no idea about Poison or they are not facing characters who straight bulldoze over her/keep her away no matter where she is i.e.: Vega, Bison (you might as well put the controller down), Gouken, Akuma, Blanka, Dhalsim, Yun and Yang, E. Ryu, even Ken and Ryu matches drag on because there really isnt anything she can do. Who’s going to chose her when half the things she does seem like its a toss-up?
Just FYI this is no attack on you or hostility, but I think we all here are in agreement that this chick can make you want to pull your hair out even with the simplest of things alot of the time.
I would think Nemo and Bonchan are just putting Poison out there on their list as a smokescreen. Unless they post some reasons why Poison (along with a few of their other choices) are in their top 5, they’re just spewing out conjecture that we shouldn’t pay mind to.
I see Poison as how Viper was back in the day (my previous main before Ultra). A lot of people in Japan raved about her, but her tech was so difficult that less than 1% of the players out there could really utilize her to the fullest. After people figured her out (low-profiling her burn kicks, and taking advantage of her piss-poor ability to avoid pressure after knockdown), she was pretty much dropped by a lot of players in favor of more solid mains.
Poison’s on the same boat because she has potential, but her handicaps are so difficult to overcome… that potential is hard to bring to fruition. Most of you guys already pinpointed her glaring weaknesses. You just gotta be at another level at the game of Street Fighter to succeed with her consistently against the best.
Unless there’s some well-kept secrets out there in Tokyo, I don’t think Poison’s doing amazing things out here in Japan. The highest ranked Poison player is Loto6, and his arcade is listed as Monte50 in Umeda, Osaka… but I have never seen him around. I live in downtown Osaka and I frequent the arcades in Namba, Shinsaibashi and Umeda.
The only great Poison player I’ve seen out here is Rokkun, whose Seth is probably one of the best in the world. He has nice setups and has gotten long win streaks out at Sega Hi-Tech Avion in Namba. However, I haven’t seen him play in a month.
Anyway, I hope that October update will give Poison a buff or two. She needs just one or two more things to become a great character IMO. Here’s to hoping.
nailed it on the head right there. it is reactable, its 16 frames start up, and she screams right as she starts it adding an audio que to the opponent to react to. plus its rare that you will be in a position to land it on the later frames on a standing opponent, a standing opponent’s hurtbox is right in range of the hitbox of the overhead causing it to get blocked on the first frame, leaving you -8. overhead is either a hit on croucher into a combo, or blocked standing and we get hit by a combo. Then you got guys like dudley who are +4/-1 on their overhead that can be RFC on hit and start up a frame faster.
its an uppercut with 4 total active frames, 2 invincible active frames that have a very low hitbox which is not good for anti airing, you want one as vertical as possible. then she has 0 invincibility and 0 active frames for 4 frames, while shes grounded, so being hit in this 4 frame gap if you were off trying to AA with the uppercut, gets you FULL COMBOED on, that means evil ryu did that jump in RH, you went for a AA DP, you were off by 1/60th of a second in your timing, he lands his j.hk in that gap of recovery and you are grounded and not getting an air reset, so he goes into cr.hp xx mk axe kick, cr.mp xx lk tatsu, sweep, and you just ate 400 damage and 600 or so stun and have a mix up coming up because your uppercut is only effective for 1/30th of a second.
and el feurte has an uppercut now, his ex quasadilla bomb, 200 damage, counter hit gets wall bounce that can be comboed, goes entirely horizantal, while still having a great hitbox to anti air with, blows up EVERYTHING because it has more invincibility then pre nerf ex messiah kick, oh and he just lets go of a couple buttons to do it.
Rose’s forward dash is 19 frames, poison is 17 (only 5 people infront of poison in forward dash duration, chun alone at 15, and a few others at 16)
Rose’s forward dash distance is 1.6642, Poisons is 1.14695, as you can see, its quick but doesn’t go that far.
Rose’s forward dash is 4th in distance, and 3rd overall if you consider distance and duration. only makoto and ibuki have slightly farther distance and less duration. Poison has great duration, but the distance is lacking as its in the bottom 15.
Rose and Poison have back dash durations of 22 frames equally broken down as 8 invincible, 10 air born, 4 recovery. Tied for second place with 5 others. El Feurte has the quickest backdash at 19 total frames.
Rose’s Backdash distance is 1.23492 and Poison’s is 1.26253, Poison does have a better backdash. This info is from the USF4 Bible which does have some errors in it, ill test out the backdashes in game, because rose’s has felt like it goes farther at least in the initial 10 frames then poison’s initial 10.
Cr.mk and Cr.mp are both 6 frame start up, not that bad, but alot of other characters have 4-7 frame start up normals that can be a nausance because they start up faster or have better range/hitbox or even both start up and range/hitbox. yea cr.mp’s hitbox is better then cr.mk’s because it extands past her hurtbox, but those frames are only the last 2, causing it to be a 2 active frame normal at 7 frame start up in a sense. the first active frame start up higher which you mention works to anti air, but it only has 1 frame which could be anti aired with. 1 fucking frame…
and cr.mk is a low, has to be blocked crouching, cr.mp doesn’t have that benefit.
Here’s frame 6 and 7 of cr.mp, first couple active frame, and only active frame that has the hitbox in this position, you miss those frames on a dive kick and your eating a full combo and getting a mix up afterwards, you also letting the opponent in and getting pushed towards the corner.
theres the last 2 active frames, which is more comparable to cr.mk. But to get to this hitbox which is far better then cr.mk’s, you are on frame 8 now making it slower.
cr.mk only has 2 active frames, and they don’t have as good a hitbox as the last 2 active frames of cr.mp, but it is a low hitting normal, and still starts up faster then the similar cr.mp frames.
for cancelability, cr.mp only has 10 frames of blockstun and cr.mk has 12. so cancelling cr.mp into lp fireball has a 5 frame window for the opponent to do something like say a focus through, or a dp through. and thats the lp fireball thats -3 on block which doesn’t help that her fireball also moves her forward. cr.mk has a 3 frame gap. using a slower fireball will give you better frame advantage, but widen the gap that the opponent has to counter in. cr.mp and cr.mk cancelled into rekka are also not true block strings as the mp rekka starts up in 15 frames like the lp fireball, and rekka is -4 giving even more room for the opponent to punish and rekka moving us even more forward then fireball. cr.mk xx lp rekka is a true block string but the range of lp doesn’t work well from a medium normal in comparison of the mp rekka. mediums canceled into ex fireball are a true string as the fireball starts up in 9 frames, but ex rekka still is not as it starts up in 13 frames. canceling into lmt? that gives the opponent 15-17 frames to do something, and as long as thats not a low normal, their either getting out the way or beating the lmt.
yea but when your go to jab jab, medium/fierce xx special is a 1 frame link, and at times rekkas can whiff after you hit that 1 frame link, don’t you think thats a little unnecessary and those chars you mention don’t have their basic light light, medium xx special as 1 framers. but the one frame combos they do have as you mention them, easily do 350-400 damage and crazy stun. Totally different argument.
shes a good character, I like using her a lot. But no way is she top 5 thats rediculous, and i don’t understand what you mean by the way im talking? You said she had no weakness so i pointed out weakness. Top 5 characters don’t have weaknesses and poison clearly has holes in her game (litterally), oh i forgot to mention, her throw ranges are some of the worst in the game aswell. Which is unfortunate because he gets great damage and set ups from her throws, especially forward throw that has crappy range. And i couldn’t really point out weaknesses for yun or e.ryu, they are top 5 chars that get great stun, great damage, great mix ups, dive kicks, and get the best mileage out of rfc.
Jesus fucking christ. Why is the SF community so fucking stupid?
Anyway, I will say that I’ve found a huge Japanese guide on poison and they have a lot more info than we have here.
I don’t really have any japanese skills except being able to read kana and figure things out based on japanese fg terms i’ve heard over the years. They have a pretty big article on love me tender cross ups.
If I felt like putting time into this game again, I’d try to read everything and figure things out…but this game sucks and the community is terrible.
Your attitude is terrible
Finally found a post I can tag with WTF.
How come you’re so angry? Is it because Nemo and Bonchan think Poison is Top 5?
So far, most of the community don’t agree with them. Neither player specializes in using Poison, and they’ve made ridiculous remarks in the past (Nemo has said that Rolento is one of the best characters in the game).
Nice post Tali, but frankly a lot of what you wrote is just simple theory fighting that does not translate well into real matches. Again with this type of argument you can make the case that any character is good/bad, and no character is immune to inconsistencies. For example yun’s HK nishi kicks have been nerfed, but Kazunoko is still using it as an uppercut and it still does wonders. E.Ryu/Bison players always talk about their teleports being terrible, but in top level play, when used right they make very good escapes. Ken players always talk about cr.mk fireball never being a true block string, but it still has uses and I still always see Momochi go for it. It goes on and on and from game to game.
In Saigon Cup 2014 Xian vs. Gamerbee, Xian is still using uppercuts, cr.lps, cr.mps, cr.mks and everything else you believe makes her inconsistent/not good. Gamerbee has played in Japanese arcades so I’m sure he knows how the character works. He’s using cr.mk HK LMT which, on paper, is -1 but Gamerbee is always respecting it. The same thing with Poison’s overhead, Gamerbee was able to react a lot but with spacing its very hard to punish or not punishable at all. Comparing it to Dudley’s overhead, which is probably the best in the game is just ridiculous, she would still be amazing without it.
I’m not discrediting your post and find it highly insightful, but at the same time most of it will be thrown out the window in match. When I said weaknessses I meant major ones, not necessarily inconsistencies in frame data/hitboxes or anything like that. Again you can make cases for any top tier character in any iteration of SF4 and say they have weaknesses, but as long as they dominate in what they do none of that matters. eg. Vanilla Sagat, you can make the case that he doesn’t have good offense or walk speed, backdash, below average normals, shit you can even say his 5 frame uppercut enables him to get safejumped, rendering him helpless against vortex. But for what he does he dominates, so none of it matters. AE Fei still had -4 rekkas, slow walkspeed and could be vortexed, but it was irrelevant because of his massive range, damage, command grab and ambiguous crossups. I can’t help but think Poison falls under the category of “bad on paper” but amazing and tough to crack in match.
@kunai, I agree it’s possible they shoehorn’d Poison into their top 5s because they see potential more than actual gameplay. I wouldn’t compare this to 2008 Viper though, the game has evolved so much since and the Japanese at this moment probably have the strongest understanding of SF4 than anyone else. Waiting for an amazing Poison player to show her off her strengths and weaknesses sounds good.
While I’m talking about Saigon Cup 2014, it looks like Xian has already shown some crossup LMT setups, which probably means they are rampant in the Japanese arcade scene. One of the setups that looks extremely viable was the safejump, cr.mk EX LMT crossup… one thing I found interesting about the set is that Gamerbee never went for DWU ever after getting hit by WOL x3, and he knew the mixup was extremely ambiguous after blocking the safejump via crossup LMT/overhead/j.lp into throw. Unless Gamerbee has difficulty doing DWU or was always expecting Xian to change the mixup (both of which I doubt), it seems like if you DWU that setup Poison may be set up for something really deadly, possibly a raw crossup EX LMT or something. Definitely someone should look into it.
i never said her cr.lp is bad, its 3 frames and has a good hitbox on it. I never said cr.mp or cr.mk are bad either, i just pointed out the weaknesses of the normals in footsies against other characters with similar normals. Think about this, if ken does a brain dead thing like step kick (blocked, -2), cr.mk(4 frames) against poison and poison does a cr.mk or cr.mp (6 frames) kens cr.mk will flat out win because even with the -2 disadvantage, his cr.mk essentially becomes 6 frame start up in the sense but has a better hitbox and lower profiled hurtbox. See how dumb that is? how dumb it is giving someone a cr.mk at 6 frames but putting the hurtbox infront of the hitbox. And he was using the EX dp for anti airs most of the time, which is the only consistant DP she has out of the 4 versions because the EX version is the only one that doesn’t suffer from the poor design flaws capcom gave it, the EX version does have the full active frames on it from when she starts and rises all the way to the top before falling. All they have to do is make the mk version just like the ex version but not have the added damage and invincibility that the ex offers.
well your just guessing that he knows the match up based on playing in japanese arcades. you don’t know that to be fact. cr.mk xx hk lmt is -1 sure but look before that, look at the gap in between the cr.mk and hk lmt, its 15 frames of vulnerability poison leaves wide open, the only perk to that vulnerability is that its safe from lows because shes airborn. that means any mid or high level move will beat poison during that set of moves. just because poison players have success because that isn’t well known and punished doesn’t mean its something to brag about. you can stand and jab her out the air every time, you can do ultra, you can do a dp every time, you can neutral jump it! cody can neutral jump and HP on the way down into a 350-400 damage combo and punish that. Gamerbee didn’t respect anything, he didn’t know the match up. This is especially apparent with the lack of overhead punishes that you just brought up, gamerbee blocked the overheads and did a delayed throw tech every time, thats the worst punish he could have done, she is -8 on a blocked overhead, thats a free rising jaguar for gamerbee had he known. which is why xian kept going for it, why stop if you identify the opponent doesn’t know the frame data. Go to training mode right now and replicate the scenario if you don’t beleive me. select adon as your character, select poison as player 2, record poison doing rekka>2nd hit> 3rd hit, forward dash, n.j.hk, overhead, and another recording of the same thing but add 2 cr.jabs before the overhead. thats the setups gamerbee was using. allow yourself to get hit by the rekkas and then stand block everything else, and mash dp after u block the overhead, tell me how it goes.
well the foundation of the game IS frame data and hitboxes, remove all the aesthetics and have this game be played with colored cubes like in a hitbox viewer and its the same exact game, nothing changes. Come on thats a pretty ridiculous statement.
your not very convincing anyone by trying to say im looking at individual aspects in a vacum when YOU are doing that with all those examples you gave. I list poison’s #1 major weakness as her regular dp (kiss by a goddess) being horribly designed, that doesn’t discredit anything else she has, but it IS relative to everything else she has and other comparable archetypes in the game. That is what your examples do not convey because they are focused in a vacum while my example isn’t. She is a zoner first and foremost, as you can see her tools are all focused around fireballs. Her fireball is her greatest tool, her secondary special is an Anti air move, which is what fireballs cause, opponents to avoid the fireball and jump. and her third special move is an anti fireball move, for mixing it up and supporting her against other fireball characters, and her fourth special move is her combo ender. Look at her normals, crouching hard punch, a button usually set for anti airing, has her swatting away above her head, her far standing medium punch, has her reaching out far at and angle to swat away high incoming jumps. Her far standing hard kick is a swift round house kick angled at arial opponents etc etc, her move set is designed to control the space between her and her opponent with molesting fireballs, and and array of anti airs for different styles of jump in/ arial moves. This isn’t a new type of character at all, there are plenty of characters like this in the current game already, but whats the main oddity between her and those characters? is her dp. Tell me why should there be grounded recovery frames mid move? tell my why the move starts its recovery before the moves animation starts going down into actual recovery? the recovery starts on the way up while it looks as if its attacking? tell me why you can neutral jump infront of her seemingly 90 degree angle uppercut and watch it not do anything? It is not usefull at all as a consistant anti air because it is active for as long as a jab. And that is a relative problem she has because as good as her normals are for anti airing, nothing beats an invincible uppercut for an anti air. And come on, please don’t put poison on the level of those characters, the only thing she dominates is hugo… in the match up and as his manager Kappa
that cross up LMT set up he was using is actually very risky for poison. It only works if adon stand blocks the ex lmt. if he does anything else poison is punishable for free. which further proves gamerbee does not know the match up. if gamerbee crouches, the ex lmt whiffs, if he holds forward it whiffs, if he does a standing normal, poison is hit, if he backdashes it whiffs etc. the only situation that poison benefits from in that set up is if adon mashes dp, as the dp whiffs, or if he stand blocks, which is dumb because cr.mk is a low so he was crouch blocking before the ex lmt and ex lmt is NOT and overhead so their isnt a reason for it to be blocked high. It is a set up that should be reserved only on a hard read as the odds are against poison.
gamerbees lack of DWU shows again why he doesn’t know the match up. since that set up has to be done frame perfect every time, ie forward dash on the first possible frame after the knockdown, neutral jump on the first possible frame after the dash, there isn’t any time for poison to watch for the technical sign and add in an 11 frame frame-kill, as the technical sign appears as she is mid air. had he done DWU, poisons safe jump fails, and she lands point blank infront of adon as he wakes up, with 11 frames to quickly think of what she should do in this rock paper scissor match she falls into. Gamerbee lost because he didn’t know the poison match up, and xian was executing poison in that match up as good as it seems from what we can tell so far.
The first situation was about step kick, generally you aren’t supposed to retaliate against it when spaced right because it has 5 active frames and can be +2. Anyway, she has a very far cr.lk that comes out only 4 frames, so even if he was -2 you have that tool. You can also stuff its startup, whiff punish or focus it. 6 frame cr.mk is pretty fast, with your example you can say Evil Ryu suffers the same since his cr.mk is 7 frames and his cr.hk is 6 frames, even though his cr.mk is probably one of the best in the game via true blockstring/hit confirm with 2 bars. So I don’t see what’s the issue with her cr.mk, any faster and it becomes ryu’s or ken’s cr.mk. One other good thing about her cr.mk is that when cancelled to EX AE/WOL it will always connect, giving her an effective long range punish tool.
About EX DP, of course it is by far the best and most damaging antiair of hers. I know that her DPs are wonky but they work okay against ground-based mixups. If they made her MK DP like her EX DP she would be almost unstoppable, you rarely be able to get in on her. Besides her normal antiairs work just fine, the main problem she has is against characters who can change their air trajectory, so every time Gamerbee jumped he had the ability to make the antiair whiff via air jaguar kick, Xian simply used EX DP to cover both options.
And again I know that her overhead is heavily minus, but again for like the 5th time when done in its late active frames it becomes relatively safe. You also have to take into account that, since which active frame it hits on varies, it’s actually hard to punish it without a 3-4frame reversal since you have to manually time it after blockstun ends, but you don’t know when the blockstun ends since the the active frame it landed on was late.
The foundation of the game is definitely about frame data and hitboxes, but you pushed it to a whole new level. Even if cr.mk has its hurtbox extended past its hitbox it still follows the same rules in footsies as almost any other normal in the game. A lot of characters don’t have any far reaching normals never mind ones that are low and cancellable and they would literally move up the tier rankings if they were granted them (eg. cody.) I would argue ken’s cr.mk also has what you would call a bad hitbox/hurtbox, does that make the move any less effective? In match Poison’s cr.mk it is an excellent poke, whiff punish, and pressure tool in spite of its hurtbox.
Again about her DP, its not supposed to be used as an antiair tool. To be honest if her regular DPs were like her EX should would probably be straight up broken especially given how fast they (LK/MK) are. She has the third best regular fireball behind only Guile and Gouken, and the best EX fireball in the game… With how low recovery her fireballs are, giving her a DP that consistent with jumps would make her unstoppable, she would be like O.Sagat basically. I’m positive capcom designed her this way, so antiairing things like divekicks is definitely a weakness for her (though even characters with DPs have trouble stopping divekicks.) However that follows for any character in the game without some invincible AA, every character has trouble with stopping them so you have to rely on her AA normals (which are very good) and her air to airs (also very good.) Gouken works the same way, with 1 bar he gets a guaranteed AA and otherwise he has to use normals. So in conclusion, you can look at it as a weakness, but if they made her regular DPs viable AAs she would be broken.
About the crossup LMT, I believe you can’t crouch block it, but you can crouch it, right? At least that’s what I understand about EX LMT crouch unblockables. I don’t think anyone is going to be holding forward or just down when under pressure… and even if this is the case, that still makes her very deadly since now you have to react to this particular mixup in addition to the threat of overhead and grab. The mixup is highly tilted in her favor then, so if she knows you’re trying to stop the EX LMT crossup via crouch, walk forward or wakeup buttons (all insanely risky options on defense btw), she can choose to do another mixup via cr.lk chains, overhead or grab. This is not even mentioning the possibility of mixing up other ways of landing EX LMT crossup, so even if you know its coming you won’t know when. Of course there’s risk, it’s rare to find setups that cover literally all options (even AE2012 unblockables had holes in them), but that doesn’t lessen the efficacy one bit. I look at it as like a command grab, of course going for command grabs are very risky since it’s possible to backdash one into a full animation ultra punish, but they are still tier-changing moves, imagine yun/yang without zenpou tenshin. There is so many potential setups to figure out, do you expect every player to know every setup? I doubt even the poison players themselves know all of the setups.
are you arguing now just for the sake of arguing?
hey there mister literal, do you know what an example is? I was trying to give a situation which shows why having a hurtbox infront of a hitbox is poor design /facepalm
There you go again doing the same vacum theory bullshit i just explained… I would take evil ryu’s cr.mk over poisons any day if that means i trade 1 added start up frame for more range, lower profile, better hitbox, better recovery, better frame advatange and the ability to have a true block string into my fireball and rekka. But see i know these things when i talk about a move, my mind doesn’t just zone in on say the start up or something like yours is doing, can you stop doing that straw man bullshit? btw look at this move
umm okay thats nice to know… i don’t think anyone was disagreeing that…
like I said before, if you would listen, for a move that she can’t combo into as a bnb off her jabs, and one that starts up in 6 frames (no that is not FAST, 4 and 5 frames are, 6 is average at best) should atleast have the hitbox be slightly infront of her hurtbox to be a more effective tool in footsies.
Yes, everyone has agreed from day 1 that her mk dp is best used as a grounded reversal, and her lk can trade and be OS’d into ultra.
what? no she wouldn’t, her mk DP has no horizantal movement, its all vertical, the only difference would be that it actually works as intended, attacking all the way up in the animation, dumb shit like point blank neutral jumps and those jump ins that go straight through her dp wont happen. You act as if correcting the dp would make it in a way we have never seen, when in reality there are plenty of characters who have uppercuts like how im suggesting, every single person who has a fireball and an uppercut currently has that mold, are they unstoppable to get in on? how about ryu or evil ryu? they have good fireballs, good far hk AA, good cr.hp AA, st.lk etc normals for anti airing, And normal dp’s that are active all the way through their animations, which also start up faster then poisons mind you, and are not safe jump able like poisons mind you, are they unstoppable to get in on? geez
they work well, but still suffer from trades, and yea they work horrible against people who change their trajectory, like air tatsu’s, and dive kicks, where the short amount of active frames on her AA normals end because say the jump in yun was doing would have gotten hit by your st.hk, but then he did a dive kick which stalled him in the air for that couple frames before he changed his trajectory and now your in recovery while hes in your face giving you 4 millions st.mp’s oh hey you know what would help? a dp with active frames!
you don’t understand how her overhead works do you… she does a hop elbow drop, which put her airborn and up high so that it beats lows. When someone DOES a low, they are crouching, and their hurtbox is LOWERED aswell, because of this the overhead keeps falling until it connects with the LOWERED hurtbox of the opponent, and the frame that it hits on then starts the hitstun on the opponent, but because the hurtbox of the opponent was so low the active frame that the overhead landed on is one of the later ones allowing for a frame advantage of +3 or +4 on average and to be comboable. Because this is an OVERHEAD, it has to be blocked HIGH/STANDING. When you are STANDING your hurtbox is fully extended vertically, which will make contact with the hitbox of the overhead during its first frame or 2, making it HEAVILY PUNISHABLE. Tell me now, did you go to the training mode like i said and reenacted the situations in the xian vs gamerbee match, which you said were safe… yea you get a free rising jaguar EVERY TIME.
Please do argue that, because thats an argument you would lose. Look at my avatar, I was a ken main. Ken’s hitbox IS infront of his hurtbox on his cr.mk /facepalm his cr.mk is by far one of the best pokes in the game.
no, like i said, the ex lmt set up that xian was using on adon only works if he mashes rising jaguar or if he stands and blocks normally. if he crouches AT ALL (crouch neutral, crouch block, etc) the ex lmt WHIFFS. I thought I was quite clear the first time.
I wasn’t arguing for the sake of arguing, in fact I don’t think I was arguing at all, just pointing to looking at things at a different perspective and have it resolve itself. I wasn’t expecting you to get all worked up and write novels back. I’m not sure why you are getting so defensive and sperging the fuck out. Not sure why you pulled the “main” card either and how that somehow means you know more about ken than me, I also happen to have mained ken from AE2012, and from what I knew in that game the hurtbox was in front, just checked out Ultra hitboxes and its the other way around. So I haven’t kept with the times, that’s not even a real mistake on my part, but you getting all angsty about it is just funny, you have no reason to be elitist about that. Also I don’t know if you were being serious or not, but I don’t know how anyone can call step kick “braindead” but that’s a whole other thing. I know a thing or two about hopping overheads being a diehard 3S player, and I know that hitting crouching opponents (certain ones in 3S) allows a later active frame to connect granting comboability. I was talking about from far away which is something completely different, I didn’t say they were safe when blocked from close range. The rest of your points I get, and they’re w/e don’t agree or disagree, no reason to keep this going. All I said was that its best not to compare certain tools to others but rather see the bigger picture and realize how many things she has in general. Instead you are comparing her uppercuts, pokes, normals or any other tool to the best in the game while pulling out a lot of meaningless data to back it up, and criticizing every small bad thing she has, ie. typical “my character sucks”. I think you could make a brilliant case over why yun is a bad character with that method. Cute reddit-level attempt to fish for likes with that seinfeld gif also.
I’d like to say LK and MK dp are mostly ground based reversals while you should anti air with her hk dp/ ex dp or combo into it to lead into ultra. Aside from this anyone think we should start looking at getting our opponent to crouch more in matches to land those ex fireball combos?
No, not even. I implied the Japanese know way more about the character than I do, or us for that matter. For me to really make an argument, I have to get on their level of understanding of the tech and strategies they’ve found out.
I have a problem with idiots going off and talking about how X character is overpowered without being backed up by any sort of knowledge, and research. Tali is going through the trouble of listing hitboxes and active frames when this dude is just going off what he’s seen in a couple youtube videos and suddenly he thinks he has a good reason why this character should be nerfed.
It’s happened over so many years that fans just overreact to any character doing well. People didn’t complain about Viper until AE when she was
-nearly exactly the same from Super
-nerfed from Vanilla.
Then Wolfkrone and Latif started to do well and then everyone cried nerf. But you don’t see people feeling the same about Justin and Ricky, like “Oh wow they’re so good. It’s clearly because of their skill and not the character.”
Ugh, just…yeah. I don’t really play this game now so I really shouldn’t complain.
you know if poison continues to do well until the next update I can see her being nerfed for no reason despite her 1,000 flaws.