I think she is on par with everyone you listed in the fireball game. Maybe she even beats a few (Guile imo).
Her fireballs are so strong because they can be used in neutral as a full screen poke, you can just chuck them out to see how your opponent responds etc.
They also double up as a ridiculous pressure tool, too. Hella versatile.
I think you are right. I believe it is the same with her overhead - she gets different + frames depending on when it hits meaty. I also think her overhead gives her varied + frames depending on the crouching character. I think on smaller characters she is given more advantage, which makes it helluva lot easier to combo into super.
on the topic of whether she is a zoner or rush down character. Her fireballs are insanely good in this game (compared to xT) in fact if your mixing up your fireballs (lp,mp,hp, ex) you could probably hit other characters out of their fireball animation before their fireball even comes out. This is especially good against Juri and Akuma. There are many times when I have seen my lp (and ex) fireball hit another character out of their fireball animation from almost full screen. Dashing backwards and forwards while using different strength fireballs is a really good tactic I find. I even think her LMT has useful zoning potential (which can double up into her pressure game). I don’t think her fireball is an effective “barrier” - it’s no chun li and guile fireballs that they can walk behind - although she can walk behind her Hp fireball, the application is not the same imo.
Edit: Also if someone wants to get into a fireball war with Poison, then just being slightly under full screen is advantageous, because you could turn the fireball war into your favour by nullifying a fireball and then just before your opponent releases another fireball you can dash forward and do EX LMT (Poison will go over the fireball and hopefully is close enough to connect). Admittedly it is not as useful as Rose’s reflect or Chun’s Hazanshu (both requiring no meter for similar application) BUT 200 damage + a hard knockdown is pretty decent. I really wish they made her normal LMT come out faster for situations like these - I would even take a damage nerf lol.
I also think the hitbox on her fireballs are really good, you can actually use them as anti-airs. Also some moves that should be able to go through fireballs like Tatsu’s are not able to go through Poison’s fireballs (even Lp version). It does seem that Tastu’s can go through her Ex version though - seems to be quite the opposite with Rose (whose fireball I always thought was quite high off the ground, only ex beats Tastu consistently).
She does have a pressure game. I just find it is mediocre in comparison to her xT version. I think her true strengths shine when she scores a knockdown because she can pressure behind a Hp fireball and go for all sorts of mixups -dash behind the fireball and throw, dash behind fireball into ultra 2, cr.mk into rekkas, lmt (and can try follow up with ultra 2), overhead etc. There are a lot of moves (especially ex) that beat Hp fireball in this game (unlike in xT), so sometimes not throwing out the fireball is a good tactic to bait something out.
Edit: Does anyone know if Ryu’s Ex SRK breaks armour? I got hit twice while red focusing with Rose. Was just thinking if Poison has her opponent in the corner there may be some application with Hp fireballs and red focus?
Ryu’s tatsu is his armor breaker (as is the case for every shoto, there are no armor breaking DP’s iirc). Any special move done as a reversal gains armor break properties however.
Dash behind into Ultra 2? Yikes, that would be a huge risk.
Each option has its risks. I think U2 is risky in most situations, the damage is pretty good even with WU though. The only problem is that her ultra 2 has such short range, but if your opponent is in the corner and you have conditioned them to block after your HP AE (even if they tried a reversal) your U2 can net some nice damage. I think a blocked Hp AE does give Poison some advantage. Most people also do not expect the ultra grab, which throws them off.
My Point was that Poison has ALOT of different options after her Hp AE that need to be dealt with/ blocked differently - in some situations if they guess right you are safe and may even be able to continue the pressure. In others you may be less safe, but if they guess wrong you get some nice damage.
I love poison, she feels so strong to me. I think her greatest asset is the ability to turn any hit on the ground into a hard knockdown and wakeup game. Even jab or overhead you can hit confirm into rekka.
My biggest issue is being able to hit those two one-frame-links that are so important: c.lp -> s.mk and overhead -> c.lp. When every stray hit turns into rekka, you can control the game so effectively.
On wakeup, I’ve been going with a meaty HP AE into standard c.lk, c.lp+hk option select that confirms into s.mk xx mp rekka, or if blocked can do almost anything. (s.lk) c.mk xx AE or LMT are my favorites. I know j.lk crosses up, but it seems if you time it to make DPs whiff, it hits too early to combo into anything. What are some other good wakeup options you use?
All those characters are great zoners. And I put poison right up there. If you know your spacing, using her mp/hp/ex fireballs at the right ranges where you recover in time to anti air any jump in with a dp, St.hk, cr.hp xx hp fireball, super, ultra etc. She also gets to juggle off an anti air fireball which can be easily converted into something at any range. Whether it’s another cr.hp xx hp fireball. An ultra, a rekka, St.hp or ex fireball if it’s far. She has a great back dash to make space. And her j.hk and j.mp and great air to airs as well.
Ryu and guile aren’t a problem in the fireball war. Just use mp and hp fireballs. They neutralize their fireballs and we build meter faster. Let them come to you. Don’t jump at them. Poison should never jump unless it’s a safe jump set up. Her jump is floaty and her air to ground normals suck. Chip away at them. Anti air them. Use the clock and life lead to pressure them to do recklessness and punish hard. Akuma is a bit annoying because of his red fireball and air fireballs. He is hard to zone and hard to rush down because he can teleport safely from poison. Sagat has such fast fireballs it’s hard go fireball war with him I usually fight him up close. I think I’ve spoken about Gouken enough.
Man, do I hate to AA with her though…I see 'em jump and I feel like “Fuck it, I’ll just block/backflip.”. All dem trades.
We can dash in and cr.mk-rekka on a blocked blanka ball? I need to look into that match up some more.
Also what do you think its better for a reliable combo cr.lpx3 into rekka or cr.lpx3, st.mk, rekka? I feel like if I do cr.lpx3 to rekka I can punish conistantly.
You should be able to confirm the c.lp hits after only 2, so c.lp x2 -> s.mk xx rekka is better. It will hit at ranges where the third c.lp will whiff.
c.lp x3 xx rekka is much easier though.
For real? Every time I see someone jump I know for certain I’m gonna literally smack his ass out of the sky. Some characters like Vega fuck me up sometimes, but cr.HP is brutal when timed properly.
The timing for AA is very strict.
You seem to have a lot of luck with Poison. Could you post some of your matches for the rest of us?
Nah bro. That cl.hp is my new favorite AA especially for neutral jumps, second is st.hk, and third is cr.hp. The first two are so amazing it just feels hype when I land em.
Also I finally landed a 2 hit MK AA DP today. I almost cried T-T
Depending on the jump you can use:
clsLP, farLP, farMP (underrated), farHK, close HK, closeHP, farHP, crouchingHP, crMP or crLP to anti air. She also has amazing air 2 air with jMP, jMK, and JHK. IMO last thing you should rely on is her DP for anti airing unless it’s EX DP lol.
farLP is great for dive kicks aimed at her waist.
Far HP is great for neutral jumps from a distance threatening a dive kick.
crLP is good but situational, stuffs a lot more than you’d expect.
crMP is also situational as only the first active frame will anti air.
farMP reaches up way higher than you think it would and can counter hit many people’s jump ins before they even finish startup.
farHK is alot like Chun’s far HK but a bit riskier as it recovers very slowly.
closeHK is a lot like Shoto’s close HK
closeHP is good for neutral jumps right in your face or high aimed jump ins.
crouching HP is her best all around though a bit slow
DP is best saved for directly over head otherwise it will often whiff unless you delay it VERY late so you get the first hitbox to connect which is the widest one.
if your close enough for 3 lp’s, why not do cr.lp, cl.st.lk, cr.hp/st.mk/cr.lp xx rekka?
@echomancer
Yeah I’ll post some matches no problem. I’ve just clocked my 300th game so I reckon my luck dissipated a long time ago. I’m not saying Poison is flawless, though. I’ve lost a ton of games from fucking up my AA timing, but I just think these problems are really easy to work around, I use her cr.HP the same way I use someone like Ryu or Kens. Easy as pie.
I’ll keep Fraps running when I run online sets today.
Found this tonight. A nice big FU to one specific character lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVCkjIZGvZ4
This setup will hit crossup vs ONLY Cody and Blanka. Blanka can EX Up Ball it but it’s a 7F safe jump so Poison gets to block every single one of Cody’s reversals AND if she even SLIGHTLY delays the jump it hits in front instead of crossup. This works as a safe jump vs C Viper as well as anyone with a 7F or slower reversal option. However it doesn’t crossup on anyone but Cody/Blanka mid screen. I didn’t test everyone in the corner but it worked on a couple I tested in the corner.
Note it DOES however whiff on some characters entirely. Hakan, Honda, Elena, Makoto, Hugo and I think 2 or 3 others I’m forgetting it will entirely whiff.
I think Poison can only punish Hard Blanka balls, any other strength (and Ex BB) are not punishable via dash cr.mk.
I still think Blanka is a difficult match-up for her. I have had some success with backflip against Blanka Balls though, causing them to whiff completely - but doesn’t always leave you in a good position afterwards.
i saw keshikaren do that setup against cody players. thats how i found out about it, i couldve sworn there was one more character it worked against for the cross up.
I disagree with this slightly. MK Dp is kinda iffy and shouldn’t be used in a lot of matchups but her HK DP is actually pretty good for AAing. It’s hard to explain when to do it, but I time it like how you would time Ryu’s AA lp Shoryu into UC1 and it always gets full damage. I still use CR.HP or st.HK (never far.mp fuck that move I still can’t believe it whiffs on crouching Elena frequently) primarily, but her HK and even MK dp are pretty solid.