bait it with jabs.
Depends on the zonk, only level 3 zonk has invincibility until 1F before the active. Zonk’s charge time for level 3 is 120F. Also the invincibility is sort of wonky and loses to any move that comes down from above (Such as shoto close s.HK or blanka’s close s.HP) or any move with a hitbox that is large enough to hit below his knees even if it isn’t a low (Example: Sakura and Adon’s c.MP or Blanka’s c.LP)
but most importantly, it loses to the one thing Cody is generally trying to get the opponent to do in the first place: mash c.LK most characters c.LK is fast enough to go through the entire startup, active, and recovery frames before Zonk even reaches it’s active frames.
As for expecting it or baiting it, most Codys wont go for a Zonk during a string unless it is EX zonk due to the startup and the fact many characters block strings are done while crouching or if they see you have gone for an untrue blockstring previously. Outside of zonks done while being pressured watch the positioning of Cody. Zonks reach isn’t great, if Cody is around sweep / max c.LK range there is a decent chance he will go for a Zonk, a f-HK or a focus dash up jab/throw. If Cody is trying to get a zonk at mid screen he needs you to do something slow to startup or slow to recover like for instance Cammy’s far s.HK. However you can often bait him to release that zonk with something faster like a jab or a lk. Sort of like players do to fake people out for fireballs when the opponent has ultra stocked to get around the fireball, they will occasionally do the motion for the fireball and then wait a moment to tap punch and throw out a jab.
Once you block Zonk, most characters can punish it with a sweep. The pushback is fairly far but the move is -8F on block.
Edit: Also forgot to mention, non-ex Zonk also loses to the other thing Cody is constantly trying to bait the opponent to doing in the first place. Zonk loses to throws of any kind it has no airborne frames and no throw invincibility except on EX.
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Nice video, that Honda doesn’t seem terribly comfortable with the match up.
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Honda has a hard time with Cody but IMO It’s not as bad as Ryu or Dhalsim is for Honda. A big key to the match is meter management, EX Sumo Headbutt and LP Sumo headbutt are unpunishable by Cody on block. Of course if Cody reads the EX he can make you hurt for whiffing it. Crossup or not butt slam plays hell on Cody’s wake up. Cody has nothing that can get him out of there or trade with the buttslam, he simply has to guess right or hope Honda miss times it.
Curious, do we have a meaty normal, normal, or set-up that can stuff EX Headbutt/Butt slam on wake up? I asked about Honda a page or two back and those videos just reminded me about it.
While I’m at it, is there anything else that can stuff Blanka’s EX Vertical Ball Reversal? I know (EDIT: meant st.) st. LK > OS EX Ruffian takes care of a lot of his options.
Against Honda you should go with safe jump + OS EX Bingo as it beats everything he has.
Here is the info about the matchup that I gathered from the forum:
Spoiler
You have to steal the lead away from Honda ASAP. This is your goal when the round starts. Clever use of rocks will get you far. You do not want to chase down a Honda resting in its natural environment (D/B Land).
Once you take the lead be sure to keep it with your amazing AA options. B+MP will shit on all of Honda’s directional jump ins save for his jump MP. It is possible to use your B+MP early to stuff his MP but then there’s the chance he’ll go for another of his attacks and you may run into some trouble. The solution here is cr.MK! It’s almost brain-dead good against Honda jump ins.
Early RH and RH Ruffian are also good AA options. Especially against Honda’s NJ Fierce. They really shine vs. that move.
**Know your punishers against headbutts. IMPORTANT! Jab and EX are not punishable UNLESS Honda is cornered. In which case U2 WILL punish them with reversal timing. **
Knife isn’t super important in this match up but it does come in handy in keeping your lead.
Honda’s cr.LP is 4 frames. This means it’s a bit easier to fish for counter hit cr. Fierce into EX Rocks after jab or F+MP pressure. Be sure to look out for reversal headbutts.
Sometimes j.HP knocks Honda out midway through his headbutt.
I’ve gotten various results in testing Honda’s Sumo Smash (buttslam), here’s what I get.
You cannot do damn thing in-between hits besides LK Super, EX Zonk, U1, and I didn’t test it, but I assume you can do a correctly timed U2.
You can FA the first part and backdash the second, but it requires timing due to Cody’s horrible backdash
I suggest not even trying to FA it.
You can block the first hit, backdash the second, but that as well requires timing
I played a buttslam-happy Honda earlier, and in two of the rounds, he tried buttslamming me to start the round. The first time, I backdashed immediately and threw him just as he came down. The second time, I did the down-MK slide forwards, and immediately threw him. Much like with jumpins, it’s possible to hit the throw button BEFORE he comes down (though I suppose online lag MAY have affected this, so don’t take it as gospel) and thus throw him just as he hits the ground.
The funny part about the MK-slide avoiding was that it looked like the buttslam should’ve hit. Either the MK-slide’s hitbox is deceptive, or the buttslam’s hitbox is pretty narrow.
U2 gets full hits no matter what. I thought you’d have to delay it, but even reversal U2 works, because Honda falls so fast to the ground, so that’s an easy punish with U2.
Without Ultra, if you want an easy hit, just Focus the second hit, hit him with the level 1 focus (not enough time to charge to level 2), and then backdash to safety.
Keep Honda out with rock and s.mk/s.mp. He can’t reliably punish LP criminal upper block strings with his 4 frame jab because of the distance the HHS and EX HB has to travel is too far for jab’s hit stun.
Use fake rocks and RH RK as much as possible in this match-up because honda has bad walk speed so he has a tendency to jump. However, his j.mp is GDLK so it has a tendency to trade RH RK. This is good cause you get a mk rk follow-up.
Honda’s have a tendency to overpoke so i use a lot of ch f+mp, c.rh and just use c.rh more often in thsi match-up then most cause honda’s slow.
Honda is very free to cross-ups and if you space right, you can probably get him to waste meter attempting to autocorrect ex HB.
Splash on the way down is very focusable non-wakeup so remember the distance and make sure he lands from hsi splash in front of you upon focusing, not behind. Don’t focus up close cause the splash will hit you going up and then down.
**Honda s.rh is -7. **
If honda does max range c.lp xx fp hhs, you get a free U2 or maybe a sweep depending on the push-back because the last few hits of hhs will whiff.
Oicho is a 5 frame throw so it loses to EX CU very easily. However, smart honda’s know they can punish you with ex hb on block.
If you want a better punish without ultra, Focus absorb the second hit and then immediately dash forward, from here you have a few options. Throw is guaranteed, and a back throw sets up a really solid mix-up because all his reversals can be OSed with EX Zonk. Your other option is c.LP into whatever. c.LP, cl.MP, c.HP xx whatever, or c.LP, c.MP xx HP CU. Whatever floats your boat. Getting the guaranteed c.LP is a little tough on the timing, but it’s also the most guaranteed damage.
Properly timed, standing roundhouse will beat buttflop & EXbuttflop clean. You have to wait until he is above you so that it becomes close standing roundhouse. Far standing roundhouse can beat the buttflop on the way up.
The only thing I like about that matchup is that back throw destroys Honda. Jump in OS EX Zonk beats every reversal option he has, and once he blocks the jump in, even though the threat of the EX Headbutt is potentially there, you can mix him up fairly well because he has to guess when to EX Headbutt, which can be harder then it sounds if you mixup between j.LK and j.HK off the back throw.
If Honda has EX, OS EX Bingo. If Honda does not have EX, OS cr.MK.
Back – safe jump + OS EX Zonk beats everything except U1
Front – crossup
LK RK – safe jump works; dashback to crossup
EX RK – crack kick to nj.FP; dash->LP->nj.FP; walk back->crossup
CU – safe jump works
Cr.LK OS EX RK on Blanka’s wakeup? What if he just blocks?
^ Meant st. LK > OS EX Ruffian.
Thanks for the compilation of information.
Unfortunately, I was hoping for a non-safe jump set up against Honda. Need something different than a jump in OS for when I do want to take a small risk and keep pressure, but maybe it doesn’t exist.
Nothing beats EX Vertical Ball, EX Bingo only makes it whiff.
This means that if Blanka has EX, you have to guess if he will reversal or not.
You should always have a safe jump against Honda - from front throw, back throw, LK RK or EX RK. The only ones that would have to be timed manually are sweep and nj.FP which knocked down.
As for OS-ing Honda, it all depends on the Ultra that you selected and tendencies of you opponent:
- OS EX Bingo beats HB and backdash, but SSM will make it whiff
- OS Ultra 1 also beats HB and backdash, but SSM will make it whiff(you should still be safe I think)
- I would not be doing OS U2 as only dust part will hit the HB, but if you just block and Honda does the SSM and goes over you, you can punish it with U2
Actually, I’d say he knows the matchup pretty well as these guys have played hundreds of matches together. He just got completely outplayed.
As soon as Honda walks forward Cody gets a free jump in. If Honda is holding down back, you can just throw rocks. Cody’s back throw gives a 5 frame safe-jump on Honda that you can OS EX Headbutt with EX Zonk, and if you think he’s going to do butt slam you can OS cr. mk to go under it and punish with Cr. HP xx whatever or even Ultra. The Honda you saw in the video was scared of both of those options so he ended up taking the throws.
Both of these guys think Cody wins the matchup on the ground and I’d like to believe them. It’s when you’re constantly trying to go in and frame trap without abandon when Honda has meter that Honda will give you trouble.
I don’t agree. If Honda does nj.FP and especially jb.FP on reaction, you will sometimes trade and in most cases loose.
Okay, that means he was looking for you to jump to begin with, which means you should have been throwing rocks. If he walks forward with the intent to apply pressure/fix his spacing though you can jump in. Either way, you’re making a educated guess that ends with a good chance of you either applying pressure and gaining ground or zoning him out and anti airing.
I used to do this…Njump.HP, cr.HP, EX-BingoZonk, FADC --> F+HK, Dread Dust of U2.
(unfortunately, you ain’t gonna have full hit + the ending frame will let your opponent earn free hit)
now i got better ones:
2.24 at murako sasaki video - an economic way to punish your foe with full dread dust of u2 finish.
- only cost fadc bar (2nos).
- better than ex-badstone -> FADC -> Ultra 2. Or mine above…
AWESOME.
So I’m having some trouble with the bison matchup, I think it’s a 5-5 matchup, but for me personally I find it really hard sometimes.
I know my option selects, I know most of my punishes, I know to buffer jab to catch stray pokes/scissor kicks and I know that I can b-mp headstomps. Basically I know most of my tools in the matchup lol.
I just sometimes have alot of trouble keeping him out, and when he has the life lead I feel like I cant approach him at all.
If he has the life lead and I walk towards him I either get scissored then slowly edged into the corner, or if they’re willing to risk it or have 2 bars, I might eat a slide and have to deal with a mix up then more pressure, I look for the slide sometimes and can block and punish, but sometimes it just gets me…
If anyone has any experience/tips please share!
I play alot of good Bison’s regularly and what I’ve found is…
Cr.Mk is your friend getting out of the corner. If they go for that head stomp you can simply walk under it or cr.mk then immediately cr.lk xx Ruffian/CU. If you go air to air with him use J.Mp (I use it the same way I use Sakura’s j.mp). Cr.Mk goes under those St.Hks also. On Bison’s wake up of course you can OS but when you train him not to Teleport you can. Do a Crack kick then Cr.Mk to stuff Psycho Crusher and or Crack kick to throw and throw him out of it. I think Cr.Mk trades with scissor I cant remember at the moment. Umm… Either ultra is ok in this match to me. U1 beats Psycho Crusher if you decided to use it but I just use U2. Once he has no meter just rush is ass down he can’t really do much about it…
Sorry if I can think of more I’ll edit.
Cr.mk is unsafe on block (and on hit) and don’t know why you would use it during his wake up unless it’s an OS.
I mainly use it for timing purposes. I only use it to hit that psycho crusher if i predict it or I see the St. Hk. If I counter poke with it I’m still at a disadvantage?
If you counter poke you shouldn’t be. But that will only work once against a good Bison player. I don’t recommend using it on their wakeup the risk reward is not in your favor. If you predict Ex PC you can just block and punish it with RK.
Thanks for the replies guys, I know most of this stuff already, as for the cr.mk I think I’ll just stick to using it for os. Hornet do you mean jump forward mp or nutral jump mp? Because for angled jumps i’d probably rather use lp, sure the damage isn’t as good but the startup and active frames are awesome for air2airs.
I was testing on my own, but I figured I’d see if the list already existed. Is there a list of who HP CU > hold UF > j. HK works on as a safe jump?
By works on, I mean will actually connect (like Fei & Honda). Not like Ryu, where whether Cody presses an attack or not and Ryu reversals or not, will whiff.
Yes, the way i remember the list is with this memory trick:
2:2:1 in addition to the Chinese chars [minus the twins and replace them with honda (i know hondas japanese)
2:2:1 means…
2 Guys: 2 Girls: 1 Black char [Akuma + Adon (both start with A), Juri + C viper (2 new chicks), Dee Jay (only 2 to pick from lol)]
For the chinese…
chars its [chun li, gen, fei, drop the twins and replace with honda]
its seems convoluted but i feel like Chinese chars [twins swaped for honda] + 2:2:1 becomes really easy to remember after a while