I never owned Twinsticks but every now and then I get the urge to pick some up on Ebay. I’ve even thought about buying a DC direct link cable for true vs. play.
I played the Netlink VO:OM a few times via direct link to people in my town, the netcode was great IMO. There was talk over at virtualon.net years ago about making an online version for DC but I don’t think it ever came into fruition.
I knew VO:OM came out on PC but not VO:OT, I will have to research that.
I never knew about this! Thank you so much for sharing!
Where did you play? IIRC, it was never released outside of Asian countries.
Those tiers are wrong. If you’re rating Bal-Bas-Bow as being the worst character then you haven’t played Cyber Troopers enough. That’s like saying Magneto is the worst character in MvC2.
Anybody who rates Viper and Bal as anything below top tier needs to start fighting people who don’t suck at the game. Bal and Viper are the best rowers in the game. Bal’s rings don’t get negated by other weapons, and his mines are fantastic. Viper has the best lockdown-corner game possible, thanks to 7-Way-Missile spam and insane move speed when he’s rowing about and flying around the stage.
Oratan, though, is another story. I’ll post my thoughts when I get home.
Copper Bones,
Although I’m better now then when I first posted those tiers, I’m not much of an expert in the original. Marz and Force…I’m pretty confident in, but not so much the original. I like BBB, but I just don’t see how he can win against any of the top 4.
Crounching and dashing forward moves with the beam rifle were very useful, and the bombs he tossed had no recoil damage off his armor making it a useful shield. If his long range beam sword dealt greater damage he’d be even better.
You mentioned Bal’s CW being knocked back being one of the main reason’s why he’s bad. I’m not sure what gave you that impression, but that’s impossible. It’s not like Dorcas’s Hammer. It can’t be knocked back. It can be dodged, or Temjin and Apharmd can use a bomb blast to shield the shots, but it cannot be knocked back. Bal’s CW is one of the best in the game, particularly the aerial, and the forward dash. The damage it does is very good, especially when it hits more than once, and the tracking is extremely good. Bal’s jump and awkward movement are what makes him hard to hit. Most VRs can be easily punished when they land, but Bal’s jump is longer than normal so he often doesn’t land where he appears to. That makes his freeze time upon landing much harder to deal with.
His bombs have high tracking, good damage, and reload very quickly. They are great to launch in the air, or against a downed opponent. His Ring Laser is THE best RW in the game. It allows him to attack and defend at the same time, and it’s the main reason why he’s Temjin’s only bad match-up. His normal dash by itself is short, but using his RW extends his dash and keeps him covered from most RWs save Belgdor, Apharmd, and Raiden. Since Apharmd’s shotgun does such miniscule damage, he only has to worry about Belgdor and Raiden’s RW. All the others get negated by his RW. The only difficult match-ups for Bal are Viper, who he loses to, and Fei-Yen, which is a 50/50. Most players don’t catch on to how powerful Bal is because they learn not to jump, but Bal is the one character who can jump and not worry about being punished for his freeze time.
Viper beats Bal because the homing beams cuts down his air movement, and does abnormally high damage to Bal. Temjin loses because his RW is useless against BBB and his bomb won’t recharge fast enough to shield him contually. Raiden can’t catch him, and Fei vs Bal is just an evasion matter.
You rated Fei-Yen too high and Raiden too low. Raiden is tied with Bal for number 2 due to his ridiculously powerful RW and CW. Raiden has a lot of very advantages match-ups. Fei is good, but she has some uphill battles against Temjin, Apharmd, and Raiden, that don’t make a difference even in hyper mode.
Broken Loose, by rowing do you mean when you cancel a weapons reload by walking, then quickly firing another shot, and then repeating? I’m not sure if you’ve played Marz but Temjin a8 is the god of that technique in Marz.
Copper Bones, after going back and playing again, you’re right. The CW can’t be knocked back. I guess I must have misunderstood what happened like you said. His CW is pretty good, but I’m not sure that I’ve got the movement down to evade people like you say. Bal-Bas-Bow has the whole Dhalsim type unorthodox thing to him, and I generally prefer more straightforward characters.
Also, does anyone else play Marz? I know everyone hates it, but even after playing Force, I still like the game. There are like…39 characters in the game. The close combat engine is actually advanced since Tangram, and the poor weapon tracking can be fixed by Watari Dashing. I’m not really sure how to do the tiers. I know in Force, Top Tier is Temjin 747a, Fei, and Specifineff. Marz top tier are both Temjin 747a, Fast Raidens, and Hatter, while God Tier is Temjin a8. Garbage Tier is Vox Loo and Vox Lee.
Step cancelling is the “rifle infinite” I asked about. I only use 747J in Marz because fuck that game, and in story mode there’s better uses of your RW guage. I noted Oratan for it because Temjin’s the only character in the game who can sustain it forever thanks to the insane recharge rate of his Rectangular Launcher (RW). Specineff, on the other hand, can only get 4 or 5 shots off before he runs out of ammo, but GOD DAMN if it isn’t entertaining to ruin somebody with 5 extremely rapid shots of his RW.
Rowing is a special type of movement where you “row” (like oars on a boat) both sticks back and forth rapidly while moving diagonally. It greatly increases your movement speed-- I mean a rowing Angelan can outspeed a mobility-boosted Ajim. Rowing was around in Operation Moongate, and was key to a lot of high-level Japanese play.
I have 2 copies of Marz. The first one I bought was gutted from Gamestop and had no case or manual. The second one I found at a Gamecrazy while driving across the country at random 2 years later and I knew that if I didn’t buy it then, I’d never have a copy with a case or manual. That said, I only play it for the story mode. The game itself is too much of a downgrade from Oratorio Tangram in speed and depth of movelists.
Oratan is nuts, though. Definitely one of my favorite fighting games if not my absolute favorite.
So wait, please give me a more detailed explanation of rowing. I move both of the twin sticks forward, then quickly move them backwards and then move them forward again repeatedly? As if I am trying to cancel the movement? But if the movement is diagonal…does that mean I dash in a diagonal direction first? Or is it when the cancel is that rapid the movement is already diagonal? I’d like to understand this rowing thing.
I use twin A configuration for Marz. Lately I’ve been trying to get a copy of Tangram, but the only guy I know with it is selling it for $50 dollars, and I don’t feel like paying that.
Actually, 747a isn’t wrong at all. 747a is the default Temjin in Marz/Force. J is the “Tangram” model that functions most closely to his Dreamcast counterpart. There’s also the “F” Flight model, “H” Heavy model, “a/C” Commander model, and the “T” Temjin model which is basically naked. Then there’s a8 “White Knight,” the mass-produced 10/80 Special, and so on.
Since I didn’t describe rowing very well earlier, here’s clarification: In order to row, you need twin sticks. Hold one stick in the direction you want to go, while moving the other stick between the two diagonals that border that direction. Due to the way the movement system works, you get a speed boost every time you begin moving at those obtuse angles.
Example:
Hold the left stick :r:
“Row” the right stick :uf: :df: :uf: :df: :uf: :df: :uf: :df: repeatedly
This also works in Oratan, but only for certain mecha. Angelan, Specineff, and Cypher in particular.
If I hadn’t given away my other OTHER US copy of Tangram, that one would go to you. I have a Japanese copy (for editing paint schemes) and 2 US copies (one for playing and one just in case something happens to the first), along with a bootdisk for the US version that allows me to use Japanese paintjobs meant for online play in the versus mode of a legit copy of the US version.
So THAT’s rowing. Ok. That explains a lot actually. I was wondering what that guy was doing in VOOM with Belgdor. I thought it was some Belgdor only glitch. Now I see that it’s something you can do with any character, but as expected, not everyone does it well. I’m going to practice it until I get it right. Although…this basically means that without twin sticks the tiers are going to be different for both VOOM and VOOT.
A few questions though. When Specineff activates Death Mode in VOOT can he be knocked down, or is high completely invulnerable?
I’ve also been told that there is a code in VOOT to give Raiden a speed boost? Are we talking Fei-Yen speed here or Temjin Speed?
Also…what in the word is the difference between the default 707S Temjin in Marz and the 707J Temjin? Looking at the stats, there’s absolutely no reason to pick 707J. As far as I can tell their CC range is the same…so does 707J have any redeeming qualities other than a nicer paint job?
When Death Mode is activated, Specineff simply takes no damage. This means that, say, if you’re fighting Grys-Vok and he’s got a nuke and a mini-nuke airborne, it’s probably not a good idea to activate Death Mode if you don’t have the nukes under serious control. A similar theory applies to high-level Apharmd B players that’ll tag you at the end of their Infight CW.
Raiden’s “speed boost” isn’t a code, it’s his special mode akin to Death Mode. If your health is lower than the opponent’s, jump in the air and hit Special. Raiden will blow off all his V-Armor (and lose 90% of his current health as well). If you’re a mecha nut, that would be a good time to shout something like “LIMITER RELEASE!” or “POWER UP!” or something equally dramatic. Armor-purged Raiden is the fastest thing in the game. Faster than Hyper Fei Yen.
Other notable Special Modes: Dordray’s Giant Mode (increased damage output, once per game), Angelan’s Seraphic Mode (ridiculous speed increase, cuts life in half, lasts a limited time and can be reused at will), Apharmd B/S’s Hyper Mode (speed increase and air maneuvrability increase), and Cypher’s SLC/SHC modes (2 distinct waverider transformations).
As far as units in Marz, certain mecha are outright better than others. This is a holdover from Force, where the game had an Initial D/F-Zero/Tekken-style card system which saved your progress on a card expended by the arcade machine. The more you played, the more shit you got, including paint jobs and unlockable units, a lot of which completely thwomped the default loadouts. This was an ironic design decision, because while such a game system alienates newer players, they also dumbed down the combat in so many ways to make the game as inclusive to newer players as possible.
Vox Dan is a good example of a horrible unit, and 747J Temjin is a good example of a fantastic unit. They didn’t bother with balance.
Now, as far as stick/non-stick tiers, keep in mind that in both VOOM and VOOT people using default controllers have faster input times than stick users. While they can’t row (in VOOT, anyway-- there’s an input mode in VOOM that lets you row with the Saturn pad), they can, for example, fire crouching Radical Zappers on reaction in nearly a quarter of the time. Yeah, all of a sudden Temjin just got a lot better if you don’t have sticks.
No he can’t. The rapid fire shots that Temjin and Raiden can do in Tangram can’t be done in Cyber Troopers. One shot of Bal’s RW will take out several of Temjin’s RW. Rowing and dash canceling out of Center Weapons were the best tricks in Cyber Troopers, while the Rapid shots were the most notable new trick in Tangram.
Out of the series, I think that Cyber Troopers is the best. It seems like everyone got toned down in Tangram except for Fei-Yen and Apharmd. Temjin, Apharmd, and Raiden lose their CC into crouch weapon tricks. Viper II loses the missles, which take away a big element of strategy. The V-Armor is interesting, but it just seems to hurt Viper. Bal Bas Bow goes from top tier to bottom tier in a heartbeat. I’m really not fond of how my favorite character got completely nerfed for the sequel. Tangram has a lot of strong points, like the Watari dashing, air dashing, double jump, and turbos so it’s not a bad game. However, Cyber Troopers is faster paced action that is easier to get into. If Bal wasn’t nerfed so badly, it might be my favorite.
Marz is a disappointment. Taking away the V-Armor was a good idea, but why remove the double jump, and make the gameplay as slow as possible? No co-op story mode, no 4 player versus mode? The only reason why story mode is difficult is because the cpu will switch your lock-ons at bad times. This game has the worse balance issues out of any Virtual-On. Why is the default Temjin as fast as Viper, and nearly as fast as Fei-Yen despite having much better armor? Why is Specineff so slow? Why was EVERYONE nerfed except for Temjin? If the game didn’t have these problems, people would still be playing it.
Broken Loose, although I would have preferred Specineff not get knocked down while he goes into Death Mode, it already seems to be unfair. The more I play with Specineff, the more it seems that 13 seconds is a really long time. I have hardly any comp in Marz, but Specineff is really good at stealing wins, when you’re both even, or when your behind.
In Marz, I use Twin A for my configuration, and my friend uses an Edit Configuration similar to the Saturn 6 button configuration. In terms of skill we’re even, but it seems that I have better maneuverability with the twin sticks, while he can block instantly. I’m not sure that the trade-off is worth it, because while I see his defense is good, there are times where I’m saved by my evasive movement. Also, you have to hold the jump button in Marz, otherwise the computer will auto-jump cancel for you. I think in Marz Twin A is the best configuration. I don’t get Twin B.
For the Saturn, I prefer the D-Pad to the Twin Sticks, because 99% of my games have been using the Pad. I still think that the Twin Sticks allow more agility, and this seems even more true with the rowing.
Copper Bones, I like VOOM a lot too. Probably most fans would have been happier if Marz had VOOMs speed and tracking, with all of the same mechs. Despite the balance issues I think Marz is pretty fun. Although the VOOM like tracking has been taken away, I think the tracking of the guns is more “realistic” and more skill intensive in Marz. A player can’t just mindlessly spam projectiles, they have to aim. I think this is why the speed was toned down. If the VRs moved faster it would be too difficult to hit them. At the pace of the game, the projectiles seem more balanced. I’ve noticed that people who are good at VOOM or Tangram aren’t necessarily good at Marz, because having to actually aim changes up their playing style too much.
-Spring Release
-1200 MS Points
-M.S.B.S. ver5.66 Virtualoids included: RVR-12 Apharmd C, MBV-04-10 10/80SP, SBV-328-B Stein-Vok. 15 total
-Xbox Live online battle mode worldwide, 2-P System Link as well
-Custom coloring in Original Mode
-HD rez and graphical improvements