Actually you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about. But that’s cool. How about you ask me a question about what I know or not? Or is acting like an elitist prick just what you do?
“Misinformed garbage”. :lol: I would love for you to tell me where I uttered anything close to that. Unless you somehow think Sarah is actually good defensively. Because she’s not. In R, she finally got the FL p+k to reverse low kicks and her new stance that looks like Jacky’s Pak So that can parry stuff as well. But her Pak So came in FS.
But again… defensively, she has the least amount of tools in VF (even Jeffrey has a sabaki). I believe they even toned down her 8 frame jab from Vanilla, IIRC. Stopping someone’s offense cold is something that she has immense difficulty with.
This has been THE INVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:
I’ve been repping VF since 4Evo. I frequent VFDC often, started a couple Sarah VF5FS threads, and started the VF5R thread here when the first version of it came out around 2 years ago in Japan. If this is about playing it or FS, well duh, the only person in this thread who’s played it is Reno. If we’re talking about Vanilla 5, I probably haven’t played it since UMvC3 and Batman:AC dropped since those games are the ones that hold my fancy right now. What do you want? A fucking cookie because you still play Vanilla?
Guys, play nice. I mean, sure there may be somethings here and there that maybe right or wrong, but I’m sure it can be settled of a game of hopscotch or something.
Just wanting to preserve an aspect why I love and respect this game, even if it’s an outside kinda aspect.
Yeah, EmX is being kind of a dick, he can go choke on himself.
So low punch isn’t a true low in VF, even though in many cases it behaves one? Okay, I was wrong then, no big deal. Tekken’s low punches can also be low parried, (I think Drag can even low revese them) crushed and such, but at least the practice mode indicator has always shown them as S.Mid’s and the dummy blocks them standing… Course I could’ve checked it somewhere to be certain, but in this case I thought a game’s practice mode would more than suffice.
XBox Ver. C netplay is playable at least, but the local VF players have said that it did lag enough that throw escapes and such is a bitch. I wouldn’t hold my breath for FS’s netplay being good, but hey, Sega may always surprise, right?
Netcode on Final Showdown will be good in my opinion. I’ve met with some people who are working on the game or are familiar with its progress and everything that I know points to the console port being VERY good, if what I’m told is true.
Man shame on Capcom,Namco & Playmore. Sega always makes bad decisions with games but even they know when a fighter goes online its netcode must be good.
I have never played the 360 version but I always here mixed things. Some people say it has one of the best netcodes in a fighter while others say it is playable to an extent…>_>
Netplay is A-Tier, but in this game especially you need S-Tier. There are lag tactics and when you go from playing online to offline it’s A LOT faster. If this game improves upon ver.C then there will be nothing to fear. If it stays the same then, it won’t be bad but I’ll wish it would’ve been improved upon.
If this game has VO:OT-quality online play then the only thing people have to worry about are people not leaving their house, haha! That’s still the best online experience I’ve had in a fighter.
Ok, first of all, Sarah had a 10 frame jab in VF4 you mong, and it was fucking good for getting through offense situations and putting you in a huge advantage if you got a CH. It’s 11 frames in vanilla VF5, and all the jabs are 10 in VF5FS, which is a huge nerf for lightweights.
Whether Sarah has good “defensive” tools or not sounds like an opinion with a litany of examples I can cite that pretty much contradict it, and I do not play her AT ALL. Flamingo is great for offense because it has so many properties and layers of risk-reward for reading what they’re going to do. She has a ton of ways to enter it through sabakis, whiff punishing and hit checks. You do realize the following list of really good tools from VF4E was made a lot less safe and the backdash nerf is why she is low tier in vanilla VF5, right? Anyway, here are some things she has that made her pretty damn good at turning the tables on her opponent for being too aggressive, the past and present:
-A long range sabaki that puts her in flamingo and blows through side kicks and most things at range
-4K which out-ranges 2P from a backdash, staggers them, and puts you in flamingo
-K,P string which was one of the best high whiff punishers in VF4E because it launched them and did nearly 1/3rd of their life
-P+K from flamingo that sabaki’d 2P and gave you a guaranteed followup, which original was a 33K launch into a big combo
-2P+K, K which hit mid and allowed you to delay the 2nd K. This let you attack out of disadvantage, run away, or do a big shenanigan like going for a throw if you simply did the first attack in the string.
-2K,K which had the same effect without a launch, was safer and was a mid, mid string and had huge range to hit whiffs off a backdash
-33K which would let you step, buffer a crouchdash and whiff confirm into a launch. PS it was also 16 frames if you buffered it correctly.
-2K+G which crumbled on counter hit from half way across the screen, and was a true low
-1K+G, K which could punish a whiff quite handily, hit-check able and put you in flamingo after the followup
-4K+G in VF5, which works very similar to Jacky’s infamous 4K+G from VF4E. A 20f mid that leads to a flop combo and hits a mile away and is also safe on block.
I can actually go on from this. If your understanding of spacing game and backdashing is ass Sarah is not the character to use. If you are bad at timing your property moves from Flamingo prepare to get destroyed since her offense in vanilla VF5 revolves around it. I’ll only defer to someone who doesn’t think having a way to deal with 2P is some unique aspect of a few characters’ design ONLY if I’m wrong about any of this. Elitism usually only occurs when you’re saying something valid or I’m being a dick to you because you are asking basic questions. I literally do not care what other games you play. Do you want a cookie for being lazy and not learning the basics of the game you feel so confident in pontificating about because your bad posts don’t fly on VFDC when someone who’s actually informed reads them?
THIS IS THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT HE’S TALKING ABOUT saying:
Shut up noob.
PS - Yomipower you didn’t know 2P could be blocked high until I told you it could. I don’t know what training mode you’re playing but if I set the dummy to block it will block it. Please stop talking.
Honestly there is nothing to preserve because so few people know what they’re talking about, at all, ever. No one has the patience to entertain people like TIS on VFDC so they get to flood that forum with nonsense. So maybe he is a victim of that process, but maybe not. I really don’t care. He needs a wakeup call and he’s getting it in spades.
Let’s count the times Kurita does not adequately punish Shou’s whiffs, while Shou eats him alive by starting out by rushing down, then out-spacing him or simply evading and whiff checking 33K. [media=youtube]BiE4FzLyisI[/media]
And speaking of “blows”. it blows unless youre putting pressure on because it sabaki’s late. (6p+k)
A “1/3 of life” :lol: Maybe off of Dragon Smash. And in FS. But not in 4Evo and CERTAINLY not in 5O. That’s one of the REALLY big reasons why she was low tier (such as it is) in 5 and 4evo. Her damage output was anemic.
Which only reversed (not sabaki that’s a totally different term. WTF) low punches, thus making you vulnerable to a lot of other things. I wish there was an attack off of it instead of just her wagging her leg in the air for about 40+ frames.
:lol: :lol: You really did never play as Sarah did you? Yes, you could delay Serpent Cannon. But the big problem with it was the 2nd hit would tend to whiff/not launch even if the first hit connected. Are you seriously trying to make it sound like you could do a mixup with it? Like mix up the 2nd hit with a throw? OMG! :lol: You could if your opponent didn’t know jack shit about Sarah (like you apparently). The delay for the 2nd kick input isn’t long enough for a mixup in any way, shape, or form. Maybe you’re talking about the delay between the 2nd and 3rd kicks of her Step K,K,K series or something. Serpent Cannon was big risk/decent reward with the big risk being because the damn 2nd kick whiffed like crazy.
And God forbid someone block the 2nd hit if by some miracle it doesn’t whiff. What is it? -15 on block?
This move was actually good but made WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better in R and FS because you can cancel the 2nd into FL and the cancel is hella fast.
-15 on block.
blows on block and normal hit (I know it’s negative frames. Don’t know the exact number off hand)
Too bad the damage you could do was pretty pathetic.
What is your problem? Do you have an inferiority complex or something? All I was talking about was Sarah’s ways of dealing with 2p. I don’t know where you’re going off to. You are OUT THERE right now. You haven’t told me a damn thing I didn’t already know about Sarah.
Sarah’s game revolves around FL? Wow. Really? Too bad that’s not what makes her “low tier”. Sarah’s biggest problems are:
#1 She can’t max out her mixups Despite the + frames a lot of her moves have on hit and (even on guard with some of her FL entrys), she could’t make people pay when they guess wrong. She didn’t have Dragon Cannon in FL like she did in R and does in FS. She didn’t have any worthwile combo extenders (other than maybe kp or 3p,k) or enders. Back in 5 if you connected with FL 2/8p+k you didn’t get a crumple if it connected (and it sure as hell didn’t dodge then what it dodges now). It just lead to another mixup. You didn’t have FL 4k,k which is a nc AND is quick enough to cap off a lot of juggles. 4k+g didn’t bound (to use a tekken term).The FL 4p+k,k,k/Step 2kkk just frames didn’t crumple and lead to a combo. It just lead to another mixup.
In R and FS she was doing damage over 70 EASILY off of 4k+g with the most mediocre of combos and now regularly lands shit in the upwards of 85+. In 5 and 4evo the biggest damage off of Crescent Heel was like 51 and I’m pretty sure it was foot dependent. Off of FL 3k the biggest damage you could do would top out at about 65 with no wall. Now she can carry you to a wall and get that damage up to over 80.
#2 Her defensive cupboard is bare. IDK how much this has changed in FS/R but I know it sure looks the same. Aoi shuts down about 85% of Sarah’s FL shit just by doing 4p+k+g. Vanessa has a bunch of shit that can cut through a number of her options and so does Goh. I’m ok with this. Problem is, when on defense, you can only play the range game for so long and if you play someone who plays the frame game, it becomes VERY DIFFICULT to stop someone’s flow cold and get your own offense started.
If any of these things are wrong, feel free to correct me instead of by telling me Sarah’s move list.
Oh wait. You don’t “play Sarah at all”.
This has been THE INVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:
What is your problem? Do you REALLY want a cookie for talking about VF?
EmX- Actually, no single character in VF5FS has a 10 frame standard P. The only 10 frame attack from normal stance is Vanessa’s DS df+P. In VF5FS, the speed of everyone’s standard P is not necessarily correlated with their “weight class.” Speed of standard punch among the characters ranges from 11-12. Edit: Sarah have a 10 frame jab in VF5 version C (not 11 frames). In VF4, Sarah has a 11 frame jab (not 10 frames)…
The Invincible Swordsman - Jacky’s Pak Sao is a reversal from normal stance…do you mean his slide shuffle?
Sarah’s new Slide (IDK it’s official name) does a reversal that kinda looks like Jacky’s neutral stance punch parry but it happens during her Slide and her Slide looks like Jacky’s side shuffle.
This has been TH EINVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:
As soon as I can find video of the thing I’ll post it.
:sad: Waah my long range mid that goes through so much stuff stuff sabakis late :sad:
Use it or don’t, but don’t try to say it’s inadequate at what it’s intended for. Maybe it did get nerfed into oblivion in 5C. You might have a case with several of her other moves that no one uses, but not that one unless it’s so much worse than it was in VF4E.
Let’s count the lifebar and the amount of damage these things do. Addition and subtraction are not hard. What is 66/200? 33%. Roughly a third of the lifebar. Do I need to spoonfeed you the combo glossary, genius? They increased the lifebar by a few points in VF5FS, just as a quick FYI.
It actually is a sabaki, it puts them in a post-sabaki stun and even makes the fucking sabaki sound. It causes a stun similar to Goh’s low punch sabaki. You can launch after it and do a lot of damage. Yes, it is risky as well. Please learn the game.
I claimed pretty unequivocally that I do not play Sarah. My question to you is why do you play her and still not know shit about how she plays? Serpent Cannon had its hitbox nerfed in VF5 C because of what I’m talking about. Yes, even off a -12 move like 2P+K you can delay it and throw because people will freeze and look for the followup. It’s a huge parlor trick but it will work against people. The magic of conditioning, eh? Jeffry’s 13P,P and 66P,P work similarly, in fact.
Serpent is absurdly good in VF4E even if it lacks consistentcy. How many of those launches does Shou land off that move? Do I need to take a tally for you?
DC is Pretty generous even at -15 on block since it’s 16 frames and led to massive (1/3rd life or more) damage. I know percentages aren’t your strong suit, so it’s pretty clear you do not know how risk and reward are portioned out for launchers. It’s actually one of the better ones in the game in VF4E since it’s even safer iirc. Wolf has 46P+K and it is -15 in VF5C, its already iffy evasive properties got taken away and it is 20 fucking frames. It also still has its uses, and it leads to some pretty ludicrous amounts of damage. I like the move and I use it when it’s appropriate. Why do you think DC is bad? You tell me if 33K sounds good in light of what other, similar characters get. Jacky’s 33K very similar but it does not have as much reach. In fact, I’d love you to find a better mid launcher with that kind of reach, speed and damage, ability to punish whiffs and launch even off normal hit in VF4E.
That’s not what it’s used for. God forbid a low that leads to a foot crumple is risky on block in VF. Maybe we should have a look at how some of the sweeps in the game work in terms of damage, riskiness and payoff? If it’s getting blocked then you’re being too predictable with it. Yes, it is slow, but you aren’t using it to poke at people to get a normal hit like you would other lows. Why is that hard to sort out AT ALL? Do you know how to divide numbers in your head or even in a calculator? You can figure this out dude, you’re only ignorant and unwilling to admit it, not mentally challenged (i hope).
I’m not going to entertain you questioning my intentions lol. My insults are simply you reaping what you sow IMO.
Both of our motives are pretty transparent, so I think the benefit of the doubt is all you really need. If you really want me to stop calling you an idiot, I will. Still I can’t stand having to spend all this effort just so I can go in circles with you. I have no good reason to be patient with that horse shit.
Lmao I don’t even know where to start with this. Do you know almost every move in flamingo has an evasive property, launches, sabakis, or leaves her at advantage? Sometimes more than one of the above! You’re going to tell me it isn’t** badass** and it isn’t an integral part to learning how to play with her?
:sad: I don’t get to do Jacky-sized damage in one version of VF5 with a move that wasn’t even remotely the same in VF4E where Sarah was top tier. :sad:
I did not simply quote Sarah’s movelist, but hey, frame it how you want since the post is already there and you do not address my points in any substantive way. If you can learn to use a backdash, you have a pretty damn good toolbox with Sarah already. If you’re smart about her sabakis, god help your opponent.
You address these points like a noob with an utter lack of perspective on how other characters work. I expect no less from people who need to get all huffy about my intentions when it comes to interpreting facts. Christ, kid.
I explained the properties of the tools she has that are pretty strong for punishing opponents who are over-aggressive. I didn’t even get to 8K+G and 9K which go over their fair share of lows, if you can time them properly lol. Yet you repeatedly take it upon yourself whine about her lack of ability to deal with lows! 9K+G is a combo starter. Both are SAFE on block. Wow dude, and you think I’m blowing smoke up your ass?
Let’s look at some of this theory fighter in practice: Shou beats Kurita soundly in several rounds of that match just using baiting, spacing, and careful evades. He makes mistakes and Kurita does not capitalize them with the maximum possible damage, but it’s a tournament and there are nerves at play. ** Do you know Kurita**? One of the first few people who became a strong Vanessa player in Japan? Shou gets in Vanessa’s face and pays the price on several occasions, too. If you are in Goh or Vanessa’s face throwing shit out randomly with Sarah you deserve what you get, but I digress.
I really hate to belabor the obvious, but just so you don’t go this route with me later on: Sarah even gets safe basic moves like a decent elbow that has 2 strings to follow up with. A 3K that puts you in flamingo (admittedly risky). The fastest jabs in the game (thanks for correcting me Akai, though when FS was announced they said jabs were going to be a universal speed). Lightweight 11 frame jab in VF4E was a get out of jail free card in sooo many situations. This is why she was kneejerk nerfed so heavily in VF5C. In VF4E she was a shoo-in for top tier for the reasons I’ve outlined above and in my previous posts.
EDIT: TIS - Let me emphasize - you are totally right to be disappointed Sarah’s nerf into basement tier (i’ve seen her ranked as the worst) in VF5C or any nerf that weakens Sarah disproportionate to other characters. I just do not see how any of the things you’ve mentioned are actually problems with her design. There are several details of the VF5 vanilla system that just make her a worse character without the nerfs she did get to her moves in terms of safety and range.
Your anger about what you think are people talking out of their asses has carried over to other things. I’ll consider this thread done for the time being and check back later.
http://virtuafighter.com/wiki/doku.php?id=vf5:system
here the systems guide on VFDC. VF is tekken with better sidesteping. Its what you like about soul calibar and what you like about tekken and put it and a nice balanced center. Now EmX Stop scaring the players off the game there just asking question even if there silly ones.
No, I’m upset because the info is there and people want even more of it tailor made to an exact context, without doing a damn thing on their own. Do you realize how annoying that is since it’s gone on for literally years? Also, I am not kidding about that offer, so I’m not sure what you mean
Brentford I somehow don’t feel I’m scaring anyone off who would stick with the game anyway, I do see your point though, LOL! All told I am not a good VF5 player and didn’t bother to learn much more than I already knew about VF4E. Uncauzi/TWP, Reno and Akai are the ones you need to listen to more than me.
And if I’m not too mistaken, that systems guide hasn’t been upgraded to FS, yet.