Basics get you further in VF more than anything. The frame data for universal moves like p/2p/6p are all the same for the most part. For character specific moves, theres obvious differences but all the moves are generally the same. Launchers are -15, sweeps are launcher punishable, mid strings are usually -6 to -8 (safe but can’t fuzzy guard after) etc. No one (well im sure some do) goes through a characters movelist to learn the frames for every move. You learn the universal frame data, then you play. If something doesn’t work because the frames are different, you watch a replay or find the frame data for that particular move then go back to playing. It’s not that hard.
Sure, yomi is found in SF – I wasn’t arguing that. The point I tried to make was that a great deal (if not the majority) of VF play isn’t found in frame data. Players have the option of approaching the game with frames, but it’s not necessary.
Also, you say “that particular knee move” as if it were unique to a single character, but it isn’t. There are classifications of attacks in VF – launchers, elbows, knees, mid kicks, sabakis, etc. – as there are classifications in SF – shoryus, fireballs, jabs, sweeps, overheads, etc. And more often than not, they vary in very subtle ways within their classifications. VF might appear to have tons of moves, but the most important ones are homogenized between every character and are mapped to the same inputs (236p+k, 33p, 6k+g, 66p+g, 46p, etc.). And the move inputs for this game are so damn intuitive that you can tell how a move is performed just by looking at it.
And compared to the 40 matchups you gotta learn in SF? 19 characters is easy 
However characters in VF have much bigger movesets you have to worry about. But most 3D games aren’t so much about matchups as they are knowing what a character is capable of. You will probably never see a real matchup chart in 3D games, though some characters may give other characters issues.
You can feel when something has hit disadvantage or whatever…
It’s quite easy to feel when something in unsafe…
I don’t use frame data for Street Fighter, and rarely use any resources until I feel like I hit a wall in improvement…
Reading only does but so much…
Each to their own I guess. Maybe I just don’t get it, anyway I hope new players stick. I always found it weird how few players VF has in comparison to other fighters. I just wish third strike OE had the same online as this, dayumn.
I guess. But my real reason for using frame data is to know how safe I am. Because oftentimes in 3D I find myself abusing moves that are simply put not safe at all. A very good example was the other day. I was using Jeffery against Lion, and I kept running 6P,P. not only did I not know hat Jeff’s 6P is -5 on block, but if the second hit is blocked he’s -15! So I was running a move that is massively punishable at the end of the day. I also found out that Lion’s 8K is -8.
I personally need to know what I can punish and how I can punish it. I will admit I’m a more defensive player, so a lot of my lab time is based on how to counter things. But I also love to know how safe I am at any give time. I would personally feel lost without frame data in this game and in Tekken. I even make heavy use of it in AE. But I’m more of a scientific player. I don’t get it when you say “feel”. If I don’t know the frames, I really am going to allow my opponent to do unsafe stuff all day. Or if he is unsafe, at least i want to know what I can punish with. I mean how can you possible know what is -5 vs -8 just on instinct? Maybe you’re like that, but I’m not that type of guy. I need frame data.
I think are talking about Tekken.
In tekken, you need to know frame data for everyone, for all 40 plus characters. not so with VF.
The rules are simple, if you block, you attack, if you get blocked, you stop attacking.
yes, some moves might break that rule, but those are the very small exceptions, not the norm, and that comes from match-up knowledge of what moves you need to remain blocking, just like any other match up knowledge from any other game including SF.
lol Hell naw…
VF is lag based netcode… if the connection slows, the game slows with it…
In 3S, you can turn the input delay to 0 so you can do everything with the same timing you’d offline…
However it usually only goes smooth on green and some yellow connections, but there are green bars out the ass on Xbox, so no worries…
There is definitely lag in VF5 online, anybody decent in the game could feel it… lag pisses me off more in VF than a 2D fighter…
No I’m not buying that.
Even on my DSL, VF is the best online game xp I have gotten across:
IV, ST GGPO, PSN HDR, and SCV.
Not saying there isn’t lag, its just, this netcode far surpasses even the ggpo quality as far as I have felt.
You don’t need to know all your character’s moves to be effective. Very simple things work and are there for a reason. For example: Block + punish with the most simple PPPK string. I only use a small percentage of the moves. I’ll use more when I become a better player.
Talking about online, is anyone getting the impression that Xbox live is getting kinda empty? Maybe it’s just Europe, during evenings here even Ranked matches have been hard to come by this week.
Yes, It’s been a little more difficult to get games lately. They still come, but it takes longer.
I think there are about 50,000 players on PSN ranked while there are about 15,000 in XBL ranked. Many of these probably quit already. I hope at least 1,000 stay for the long term and more people buy the game in the following weeks.
The large input buffer makes the game feel good online, but the lag is still there an has an effect.
I think the reason VF has a reputation for being complex is that a lot more of the system’s intricacies are laid out for you by the game itself. It leads to people trying to do too much too soon. Whereas with SF the learning process is more organic.
I think this is definately true. When I first entered the Dojo I was like ‘‘I’m SF player and what is this?!’’ and it was definately intimidating.
Agreed. You can definitely feel the lag. The netcode is no different than vf5 that was released a couple of yrs ago. Need more ggpo for 3d games.
GGPO is definitely the best at optimal settings on PC but when it comes to non-ggpo netcode this is the best I’ve come across. I play a minimum of 3 bars though because I’ve had some bad matches under that. Sometimes I get lucky and for some reason 1bar seems great but I don’t want to take the gamble so I’ve tried my best to avoid them.
For some reason companies haven’t gotten the hang of GGPO on console but Skullgirls on PS3 is solid from my experience.
I think this is better than the alternative.
People are always wanting a better tutorial in fighting games, and yet when a game finally has one, people start saying it’s telling them too much.
Are fighting game players ever satisfied?
I feel the opposite. VF feels more organic than SF, especially SF4.
The delay is there, but you have to consider how much use Delay 0 actually gets in GGPO as well. I’ve missed tons of evades and been hit by things I think I shouldn’t have occasionally but it’s really stable anyways (and stability is a big problem with rollback netcode in fighters in general, as awful as the console implementations are and as iffy as the GGPO client can be for certain games and users). The Sega AM netcode just seems to be really efficient about sending, receiving, and handling data to where you don’t get much in the way of spikes or slowdowns unless something goes really wrong-.
If VF5 was a game with 3 frame jabs and 1 frame throws it might not be up to it.