IIRC his level 3 does OTG.
Dark Angle (Level 3 Hyper Combo): Frames 1-19 invincible, crumples opponent, hard knockdown, OTG-capable.
Yeah Vergil doing Helm Breaker on your head then teleporting back up into another Helm Breaker is reminiscent of his DMC3 self.
Exactly, which is why I love how faitful this game is to his adaptation from DMC3. I knew he could teleport cancel Helm Breaker, but can he even cancel it with say Judgment Cut, or other special attacks?
I think he can cancel Helm Breaker on wiff into teleport too, even outside of DT?
yes (lots of Spiral Swords combos do this) and yes
Helm Breaker is cancelable into S (which means you can do the S xx H xx S chain here), Specials, and Hypers.
One thing Im trying to implement is going from Helm Breaker into S > H + Assist > M trick for pressure/mixup.
Can someone post frame data on normals on hit / block, as well as start up and recovery plz
Wow!!! - 30??? Holy shit… I knew it was bad (Way worse than Dante’s) on block / whiff but that is in another league of badness…
Hmmm…kinda but, you don’t really get the whole picture there. The only time you’re really going to have a problem is if you whiff and that’s only if you whiff when not in DT.
On block you can cancel stinger into rising sun and as long as they block the rising sun and you teleport back down that is a safe block string. It’s definitely no more than negative one or 2 at worst because I’ve tried punishing that block string with 4 and 5 frame normals and nothing works. He doesn’t even have to be in DT for that string to be safe. It’s safe even without being in Devil Trigger.
Rising sun in general is safe to throw out as long as you force them to block because both hits will hit even some of the smallest crouching characters (both hits even). I was testing in training mode and rising sun if X-23 doesn’t push block forces her to block both hits of the rising sun and then he teleports down safely. If she push guards you’re still basically safe.
The reason why this is so safe is because although Stinger is negative…it’s completely cancellable into rising sun. Stinger also does INSANE guard stun. Maybe he’s negative but it also puts the opponent into a really hard state of non movement also. Once you force them to block stringer they are stuck in block stun for what is almost forever in this game. From there you can rising sun teleport down safely. If they advance guard that makes you even safer because advance guard pushes you out and forces them to be in block stun for a longer period of time. You don’t get frame advantage to attack if they don’t push guard and they can start pressing buttons…but you’re safe enough to be able to block immediately afterwards.
Stinger for Dante and Vergil are technically safe even though they are guidebook negative because one can be bold cancelled and the other can just be straight special cancelled.
**Cancelling moves into other moves is what makes MVC3 different from say SFIV and why you can’t really go by the frames/guide for how safe/unsafe a character is. **
For those that want it I will eventually post down frame data just for reference. Not going to give out all the info in the guide but the frame data won’t kill anybody.
Decent footsies OS if you expect whiff or block, Helm Breaker > 623H
Whiff nets H teleport, block nets cross up special. Good mix up or mostly safe teleport.
I don’t know why Helm Breaker is S cancellable LOL
I’m having so much fun playing Vergil right now.
Think of it this way -
Dante - Spellsword
Strider - Ninja
Vergil - Samurai
And there is something to like about all 3.
Bumped for update.
thats not legit high/low… lol
Considering how he has basically no high/low game without DT this is pretty legit in comparison. It allows him to air dash high/low at a lower height and from a longer range than even Dante can. You can do it low enough where it’s more or less like he’s dashing forward at you with an overhead.
His air dash is the fastest and longest in the game and now that we know there’s basically no minimum height for his air dash like there is for Dante…he’s set for mix ups in DT with or without assists.
I always knew that vergil airdash in DT was good, but now i think it might be one of the best on the game(if not the), the no height limit is really good.
There is a height requirement for Vergil’s DT airdash. He has to be on the 5th frame of his jump to air dash. For comparison, Dante has to be on the 8th frame of his jump.
There’s also extra time during the airdash before Vergil can attack out of it. His airdash has 5 frames of startup that must pass before he can attack. For comparison, Dante only has to wait 4 frames before attacking out of his airdash.
Also this isn’t a legit mixup. The fastest that IAD j.H can hit is in 22F. The cue to react to this is super obvious (Vergil lifts off the ground very early in startup). A 22F overhead with a ridiculously obvious cue isn’t a legit mixup tool. 
I’ll admit that there is technically a height requirement but the requirement is so low that you basically do it near instantaneously. Unlike Dante where those extra 3 frames allow you to sometimes mess up his air dash and just get an H, Vergil can air dash so low to the ground that there’s literally no way to mess up the timing to air dash. It’s pretty the instant you press up on the stick you can hit 2 attack buttons together and you’re already in an air dash. Vergil can almost ride along the ground if you air dash near the first possible frame.
What you also have to account for is that this move or less allows Vergil to overhead you from a ridiculous range across the screen. Once you get into range where you can dash in c.L or air dash in H the opponent has big problems. You just can’t react to both dash in c.L or air dash H coming at you at the same time without chicken blocking. Which of course chicken blocking is the universal answer to every high/low based ground mix up which then sets you for new mix ups like dash unders, and air throw/air normal mix ups.
You can react to every air dash technically by just chicken blocking as you see the air dash but people don’t do that because dash up c.L will blow you up if you go for the chicken block. Yeah if you’re on a roll you can react to the air dash H once in a while but there’s no way you’re going to be consistently reacting to high/low without chicken blocking. Dash up c.L you basically can’t react to at all and if you’re looking to react to instant air dash H and Vergil goes for c.L you’re taking damage. If you can tell me you can react to both air dash H and dash up c.L in a consistent stretch without chicken blocking then you’d probably be the best Tekken player every since there’s 20 frame lows in that game that people consider unable to react to.
At first I didn’t pay much mind to this because if Dante had Vergil’s jump normals he would not have a functioning high low game because his air dash mimimum would more or less make them whiff anybody but bigger characters like Captain America up. Until I realized that he has almost no real frame requirement in comparison to the other characters…it’s definitely a big deal. Vergil’s air dash H allows him to overhead the 3 characters that Dante can’t air dash overhead (Ammy, Phoenix, Morrigan…technically 4 now cuz of Coon) which is a big deal. At mid range scaring the opponent into wondering if you’re going to dash up c.L them or air dash H them is a big problem that they’ll be forced to chicken block to block on reaction. Doing standard ground blocking there is no way you will block on reaction consistently because of how he can pretty much instantly get up off the ground and go for the H.
The fact that he has to be at a range to do the overhead is actually kind of an advantage because it keeps him less prone to the only other thing you can hope to do on reaction which is air throw the air dash that doesn’t involve chicken blocking. The fact that it doesn’t even work against most characters at the range they could reliably air throw you makes it so you can force this pretty religiously.
No, you react to Vergil jumping and realize there is no way he can hit you low once his feet leave the ground. If his feet don’t leave the ground, you don’t block high / upback it out of there. I don’t see how 2L can blow you up in this situation.
This leads me to believe that you don’t understand how reaction cues work. 20F high/lows with no distinct early cues can be used as legit mixup (see: SF4 Sagat overheads, Millia 6K in GG, Tekken lows, etc). The same cannot be said for 22+F overheads with early and obvious cues (see: Sol standing dust in GG, Dante IAD j.M, etc).
The moves that work as legit mixup are those that are typically between 15-20F and have no early, distinct cues. Take Vergil’s Rapid Slash for example. That move will hit 18F after Vergil starts moving. Prior to Vergil moving, the animation for Rapid Slash is exactly the same as that of Judgement Cut, and once he moves it is also incredibly similar to Vergil’s regular dash, so you can’t use that extra startup time to determine if he will hit left or right. And to block correctly, you would have to move the stick from one side all the way to the other, which takes extra time compared to simply going from down-back to back.
Therefore Rapid Slash / Judgement Cut can be used as a legit 50/50 that is unguardable on reaction, with some dash in 5L/2L mixed in as well. The same can’t be said for IAD j.H, where the solution to blocking is immediately obvious during the first few frames of startup (Vergil’s feet lifting off the ground).
the DT IAD is alright with a low assist, otherwise its just something you will someone with once or twice since they probably haven’t seen it…
Well considering it only works from a range any way the opponent can just knee jerk chicken block to eliminate the mix up. That’s the best way to do it. If you catch them staying on the ground it’s very hard to react to Vergil dashing up with a c.L or dashing up into IAD H. Especially considering the range the IAD H will hit from. I’ve only really tried it with some of my friends but at long as they’re on the ground they were not reacting to it consistently. They were all chicken blocking before I even moved to stop the mix up.
That’s a good sign of the strength of a high/low if they are chicken blocking before the IAD releases. It’s just too fast to react to everytime (especially if he’s in (even more so if he’s in XF…just forget it then). Only pre emptive options will safe you from the mix up completely.
FRAME DATA (with some other misc. notes)
Alright…I figure since it’ll help people get more of a measure for Vergil in general I’ll post up his frame data. I’m not going to go into everything for the sake of keeping it simplistic and not going overboard with stuff from the guide. Gonna omit stuff like active frames, assist data and (most of) the move property notes. Eventually someone will most likely make an app guide any way like last time.
WARNING: DON’T FREAK OUT AND USE THIS FRAME DATA TO DETERMINE THE SAFENESS OF VERGIL. THIS IS NOT SF. This is Marvel…you can cancel everything on block OR whiff so the frames don’t matter unless you don’t cancel. Cancelling into rising sun into trick up after doing one hard normal like s.H is a legit safe block string (as long as you block after). It can’t even be XF guard cancelled by most anything except mash bionic arm. The rising sun will hit the opponent out of any other XF guard cancel attempts.
NOTE: They must block the first or second hit of the rising sun in a block string in order to be safe. If the rising sun completely whiffs you can be punished. That’s why it’s preferable to only do one normal and then cancel into rising sun or two at the most unless you can an assist at some point. If desperate cancel into devil trigger or sword spiral.
Frames wise his L and M normals are better than Dante’s especially in the start up department.
For example just because his moves are negative on hit or block doesn’t mean that his pressure is unsafe. That’s just showing you what would happen if you were to theoretically not cancel into anything else. Of course that never happens. Rising sun, the move you normally cancel into to keep block strings safe is even negative 11 or 7 on block but if you H teleport cancel it, it then only gets to about a couple frames negative so you can block safely. This of course you won’t see from just reading frames.
Vergil happens to be the one character in the game that can’t cancel his whiffs into specials unless he’s in Devil Trigger so make having meter stocked up for him for Devil Trigger a priority to making his pressure safer also. Even without…rising sun block strings are still solid. You can still cancel into supers on whiff without being in DT so keep that in mind.
In general some normals/specials are cancellable into other normals/specials to make safer so play around and figure out which combinations work. If needed…call assists during to keep safer.
Legend: Start up = Amount of frames it takes before move connects. Recovery = Amount of frames it takes for the move to recover and allow you to block again if you don’t or can’t cancel it. Advantage hit = the amount of frames you are able to move or not move after hitting someone with that move (if you don’t or can’t cancel, varies on move/situation). Advantage block = The amount of frames you’re able to move/not move after block (if you don’t or can’t cancel, varies on move/situation).
/ then number afterwards = frames the move achieves when in Devil Trigger, for example Vergil’s s.M starts up in 8 frames normally but becomes one frame faster at 7 in DT 8/7)
For Supers there are 2 numbers for the start up not just one like traditional fighters. Which means there’s technically 2 start up periods. The first means the number of frames Vergil will flash white and unable to move or perform any actions. The second number is the amount of frames Vergil still can’t move or attack AFTER the screen freezes. For example his Dimension Slash Super is 8+3 frame start up. That means there are 8 frames where Vergil can’t block or perform any actions and a white flash appears behind him. THEN the game freezes. After that Vergil is still unable to move or attack for 3 more frames and then (IIRC) on the 4th frame the super will be active on the screen.
That’s why it’s not a good idea to mash on supers if the opponent is next to you because you’ll probably get hit during the pre freeze start up first. The only exception would be moves like his Devil Trigger or his Dark Angel. He is invincible for 4 of the pre freeze frames for his Devil Trigger. He is invincible during all 11 start up frames (both pre and after freeze) and all 8 active frames of his Dark Angel.
XF Boosts: Level 1 125 percent damage, 115 percent speed ; Level 2 150 percent damage, 120 percent speed; Level 3 175 percent damage, 125 percent speed.
For reference if Vergil is in level 3 XF + Devil Trigger he gets to 195 percent damage and 140 percent speed (5 percent less damage than Hulk, as fast as X-23 in level 3 XF).
Just for convenience I’ll bold any frames that I believe are strong without any cancelling involved.
FRAMES
Snapback = 2 frame start up (a few characters like Chun Li still have one frame start up snapbacks)
s.L = Start up 6, Recovery 12/10, Advantage Hit -1/1,** Advantage Guard -3/-1**
s.M = Start up 8/7, Recovery 23/20, Advantage Hit -7/-4, Advantage Guard -8/-5
s.H = Start up 10/9, Recovery 33/29, Advantage Hit -12/-8, Advantage Guard -13/-9
c.L = Start up 5, Recovery 16/14, Advantage Hit = -4/-2,** Advantage Guard = -6/-4 (relatively safe from distance without cancelling)**
c.M = Start up 8/7, Recovery 24/21, Advantage Hit = -7/-4, Advantage guard -8/-5
c.H = Start Up 12/11, Recovery 24/21, Advantage Hit = Knocks down,** Advantage Guard = -6/-2 (pushes them back a good distance on block)**
S = Start up 10/9, Recovery 32/28, Advantage Guard = -13/-9 (strong hit box/active frames for AA purposes, cancellable into s.H on block or hit, no whiff cancelling even in DT)
j.L = Start Up 6, Recovery 18/15, Advantage Hit = +12, Advantage Block = +10
j.M = Start Up 8/7, Recovery 21/19, Advantage Hit +16, Advantage Guard +10
j.H = Start Up 11/10, Recovery 23+20, Advantage Hit +19, Advantage Guard +18
j.S = Start Up 18/16, Recovery 20/18, Advantage Hit = (causes hard if used in launcher, ground bounces otherwise), Advantage Guard = 0
Stinger f+H = Start Up 13/12, Recovery 50/43, Advantage Hit -29/-22, Advantage Guard -30/-22
High Time df+H = Start Up 9/8, Recovery 31/27, Advantage Hit 0/+5, Advantage Guard = -17/-12
Trick (during High Time press H) = Start Up 11/10, Recovery 10/8
Helmet Breaker j.d+H = Start Up 13/12, Recovery 18/16, Advantage Guarded 0/+2 (hard knockdown on hit)
Trick L (during Helmet Breaker press L) = Start Up 14/13, Recovery 11/10
Trick M (during Helmet Breaker press M) = Start Up 16/15, Recovery 13/11
Trick H (during Helmet Breaker press H) = Start Up 16/15, Recovery 10/9
Upper Slash (during S on hit or block, press H) = Start up 5, Recovery 28/24, Advantage Guard = -8/-4 (ground bounces opponent on hit)
Note for Specials: round trip is the special move move he can use in the air, outside of his normals he can also wall jump normally and has air dash and double jump when in DT.
Judgment Cut d,df,f+ATK = Start Up 25/22, Recovery 30/26, Advantage Guard +8/+12 (knocks down on hit)
Rising Sun f,d,df,+L = Start Up 9/8, Recovery 30/26, Advantage hit +11/+15, Advantage Guard -11/-7
Trick (during Rising Sun H) = Start Up 11/10, Recovery 10/8
Lunar Phase f,d,df+M = Start Up 15/14, Recovery 24/20, Advantage Guard -7/-2
Rapid Slash = f, d,df+H = Start Up 28/26, Recovery 32/27, Advantage Guard -8/-3 (if all hits connect knocks down, keeps opponent standing if last hit does not connect)
Trick d,db,b+L = Start up 14/13, Recovery 11/10
Trick Down d,db,b+M = Start Up 16/15, Recovery 13/11
Trick Up d,db,b+H = Start Up 16/15, Recovery 10/9
Round Trip (air OK) = Start Up 30/27, Recovery 15/13, Advantage Hit +90/+80, Advantage Guard +89/+70 (only move with more advantage in standard form than in DT)
Note for Supers: Dimension Slash, Blistering Swords and Summoned Swords can be done in the air. Has follow ups to some of his supers that require a second meter to be spent. Meaning he’s the only character in the game that has 2 meter supers.
Dimension Slash d,df,f+2atk (mash on one of the buttons on the stick for more damage) = Start Up = 8+3, Recovery 65, Advantage Guard - 59
Spiral Swords f,d,df+2atk = Start Up 13+1, Recovery 10
Sword Storm d,df,f+S (during spiral swords, burns another meter to utilize) = Start Up 5, Recovery 5
Blistering Swords ATK+S (during Spiral Swords, burns another mete to utilize) = Start Up 3, Recovery 2
Summoned Swords ATK+S (during Blistering Swords, simply allows you to release swords early, which atk button you press determines the direction they shoot) = Start Up 1, recovery 4, Advantage Hit +27, Advantage Guard +26
Devil Trigger d,db,b+2atk (Vergil gains the ability to cancel whiffed normals into specials, 15 percent speed increase, 20 percent damage increase, double jump, an extremely fast and far moving forward/backdash with almost no height restriction, health regeneration, bigger hitboxes on most of his special moves, better frames on most specials, his assists all receive the buffs, he gains access to his level 3 and he basically becomes a completely different character) = Start Up 6+0, Recovery 4, Invincible on frames 3-6 (useful for dodging fast supers that aren’t active very long such as Hawkeye’s gimlet).
Dark Angel also d,db,b+2atk (Level 3, Must be in Devil Trigger, does 610k damage and allows for follow up damage, be careful about accidentally activating this while in DT due to same motion) = Start Up 6+5, 42 Recovery, Advantage Guard -27