Ver.2013 Rebalance Thread

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter x Tekken
1

UPDATES
The patch is finally out!

Extra Discoveries:

  • Granchi Canno has JP 2, JA 2
  • Spiral Rocky has JP >4->4->4->4, JA 0-0-0-2

Hey everyone, this is a thread to help keep track of all the new rebalance changes happening to our favorite fat man. I’ve copy/pasted everything from the front page articles. If you notice something missing, please let me know! :slight_smile:

SYSTEM CHANGES
Forward recovery roll – After a forward roll, hurt box appears 7F before any additional actions are possible (still throw invincible)
UPDATED Forward recovery roll - A hurtbox will appear in the 7 frames when Forward Recovery ends, and the player will be able to block.
Forward recovery roll - Rolling character will be throwable in the 10 frames at the end of the roll and throw escapes will not be possible.
Normal throws – Startup changed from 7F->5F
Normal throws - If a normal throw hits, recoverable damage is eliminated (excluding air throws)
Recoverable health speed – Speed of life recovery reduced to 1/3
Recoverable health color – Changed from dull white to orange color to increase visibility
Guard cancels – Can no longer follow up with additional hits after connecting with a guard cancel move
Cross Arts - Initial move damage changed from 100->150
Quick Combo - Preset combo 1 made blank, will not activate even when set
Quick Combo - Combo registered to preset combo 1 is moved to preset combo 2
Life Gauge - Life gauge no longer shakes when taking damage
Pandora - Timer increased from 7 secs->10 secs
Pandora - Special gauge increases to MAX at the same time as activation, but does not auto-regenerate.
Pandora - The incoming character’s position closer on activation
Pandora - Activation time reduced by 2F
Pandora - Damage increase is fixed at x1.15, regardless of remaining health
Pandora - Timing for end of recovery of Pandora activation is now the same across all characters
Pandora - Super Arts performed during Pandora will not activate gems with the following conditions: Perform a Super Art + Have a Super Art performed on you
“FIGHT” timing at the beginning of the round – Disappears before characters are able to move
Camera work – Camera no longer changes during the launch attack portion of a cross rush
BP table contents – BP table modified
Gem activation effects – Glowing effects toned down
Fortitude gem effects – Small:100 Mid:130->Small:80 Mid:110
Life Force gem effects – Small:80 Mid:100->Small:60 Mid:80
Harmonize gem effects – Small:60 Mid:80 Large:100->Small:40 Mid:60 Large:80

GEM CHANGES (some of the ID numbers seem off?)
[ID:23] Immense Power Lv.3 – Attack 30%UP->Attack 10%UP
[ID:23] Immense Power Lv.3 – Effect Time 10 secs->20 secs
[ID:23] Immense Power Lv.3 – Along with changes, name changed to Immense Power Lv.1
[ID:24] Immense Power Lv.3 - Attack +30%→Attack +10%
[ID:24] Immense Power Lv.3 - Active length from 10 seconds→20 seconds
[ID:24] Immense Power Lv.3 - Along with the changes, named changed to Immense Power Lv.1
[ID:62] Iron Wall Lv.3 - Defense +30%→Defense +20%
[ID:62] Iron Wall Lv.3 - Active length from 10 seconds→15 seconds
[ID:62] Iron Wall Lv.3 - Along with the changes, named changed to Iron Wall Lv.2
[ID:102] Fortitude Lv.3 - Damage reduction +160→+110
[ID:102] Fortitude Lv.3 - Active length from 10 seconds→15 seconds
[ID:102] Fortitude Lv.3 - Along with the changes, named changed to Fortitude Lv.2
[ID:190] Harmonize Lv.3 - Life recovery from +80→+60
[ID:190] Harmonize Lv.3 - Along with the changes, name changed to Harmonize Lv.2
[ID:182] Harmonize Lv.3 – Life recovery 80->Life recovery 60
[ID:182] Harmonize Lv.3 – Along with changes, name changed to Harmonize Lv.2
[ID:189] Harmonize Lv.3 – Life recovery 80->Life recovery 60
[ID:189] Harmonize Lv.3 – Along with changes, name changed to Harmonize Lv.2
[ID:245] Proficiency Lv.3 - Gauge usage reduction +40%→+20%
[ID:245] Proficiency Lv.3 - Active length from 10 seconds→15 seconds
[ID:245] Proficiency Lv.3 - Along with the changes, named changed to Proficiency Lv.2

BOB BUFFS
Walk speed – Changed to same as Ken
Close/Far LP - Startup 5F->4F
Close MP – Startup 10F->6F
Close HP – Midair hit causes bound
cr. MP – +6F on hit/+2F on block (was +4/0)
cr. HP – Hit box enlarged
cr. HP - During active frames 3~7F, from the neck and up is invincible against air attacks
UPDATE cr. HP - During active frames 3~6F, from the neck and up is invincible against air attacks
Gaufrettes Punch – Midair hit causes bound
Fast Break – Changed from high to mid attack
Fast Break - Can be canceled (special?/super?)
Cracker (L) – Hurt box appears 1F later (???)
UPDATE Cracker (L) – Hurtbox on the first active frame of the attack hitbox has decreased (???)
Cracker (L) - Startup 10F->6F
EX Cracker – Startup 9F->6F
EX Cracker - 0F on hit (was -14) (???)
Spiral Rocky - Landing recovery reduced
Langue Washer – Damage 60->80
EX Giga Jacker – Projectile invincible from startup until rebound after hit, move is projectile invincible
EX Giga Jacker - Damage 120->180
EX Giga Jacker - Hit causes untechable knockdown
EX Giga Jacker - Bound when hitting airborne opponent
Granchi Cannon - Move is +2 on block (was -5)
Giga Meteo – First hit doesn’t use midair combo count (???)
Giga Meteo - If first hit connects midair it causes bound
Flying Cask – Damage 120->130
Quarter Deck – Damage 120->130

METER GAIN BUFFS
Spinner Ball: On hit 0->15×2(30)
Lyonnaise Break: whiff 5->10
Perfect Press: whiff 5->20
Perfect Press: On hit 40->45
Panini Flip: whiff 5->20
Cracker: whiff 10->15
Cracker: On hit 40->30
Pound Cake: whiff 5->15
Cracker Jacker: whiff 5->20
Langue Washer: whiff 5->10
Spiral Rocky: whiff 5->10
Granchi Cannon: whiff 5->15
Apres Sweep : whiff 5->15
Cutting Coppa: whiff 5->10
Giga Jacker: On hit 40->50

BOB NERFS
Close/Far LP – Hurt box enlarged
Cracker – Causes lower float on midair hit
Cracker - Fall speed slowed
Spiral Rocky - Removed invincibility
Granchi Cannon - Only counter hit causes crumple
Far HP – Push back on block when used in boost combo reduced
cr. HP - Damage 90->80
j. HK – Damage 100->90

METER GAIN NERFS
Spinner Ball: whiff 10->5
Lyonnaise Break: On hit 40->25
Panini Flip: On hit 30+20+20(70)->15×3(45)
Cracker: On hit 40->30
Pound Cake: On hit 40->30
Langue Washer: On hit 40->25
Spiral Rocky: On hit 20×4(80)->10×4(40)
Granchi Cannon: On hit 40->30
Cutting Coppa: On hit 30->25
Giga Jacker: whiff 15->0

NOT SURE IF BUFF/NERF?
Granchi Cannon – Hit causes wall bounce
cr. HP - Changed way move overlaps with others / push hitbox (???)
Spiral Rocky – Blow back on hit modified (???)
Granchi Cannon - Changed midair combo count

…and that’s it so far! Comments and notes to follow. Once the game comes out, I will be updating my Bob data sheet with this new info (if possible? Some of it may require some experimentation)

Bob Data Sheet Link

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Here are some musings I’ve had so far about the changes…

BOB BUFFS
Walk speed – Changed to same as Ken
- AWESOME!!

Close/Far LP - Startup 5F->4F
- This is good news, but the s.LP nerfs are also bad news… One thing about this is the fact that boosted close s.MP leaves Bob at +4. There’s been no mention of nerfs to boosted s.MP (which I also find very surprising), so… Possible boost looping?

Close MP – Startup 10F->6F
- Wow. That’s a VERY substantial frame change. You’ll be seeing a lot more of this move after jump-ins and frame-traps and whatnot I bet.

Close HP – Midair hit causes bound
- Not sure if I see many applications? close s.HP seemed always seemed kind of “meh” to me. shrug

cr. MP – +6F on hit/+2F on block (was +4/0)
**- Bob gets to join the c.MP club, can now link and frametrap with it. **

cr. HP – Hit box enlarged
cr. HP - During active frames 3~7F, from the neck and up is invincible against air attacks
UPDATE cr. HP - During active frames 3~6F, from the neck and up is invincible against air attacks
- All the buffs to c.HP are great and everything, but I already thought it was an amazing anti-air? Seems a little unecessary even? With these changes though, could we use it to beat high pokes/s.jabs?

Gaufrettes Punch – Midair hit causes bound
- Nice! There are actually quite a few times where I would strike with this and it just sends them flying. Now I get to combo!

Fast Break – Changed from high to mid attack
Fast Break - Can be canceled (special?/super?)
- A USE FOR FAST BREAK! :eek: I wonder if we can cancel it into combo on hit?

Cracker (L) – Hurt box appears 1F later (???)
UPDATE Cracker (L) – Hurtbox on the first active frame of the attack hitbox has decreased (???)
Cracker (L) - Startup 10F->6F
- I’m not sure what this really means? It was upper-body-invincible 1-5F, strike invincible 6-9F… so, less hurtbox when? Either way, the MUCH faster startup should make this an easier anti-air now (if it remains upperbody/strike invincible when active) and also better and killing jab pressure.

EX Cracker – Startup 9F->6F
EX Cracker - 0F on hit (was -14) (???)
- It was already invincible enough to be a good AA, but now easier to react with?

Spiral Rocky - Landing recovery reduced
- somehow I doubt it’s enough to make this move abusable?* ;)*

Langue Washer – Damage 60->80
- Hello more damaging BnBs!

EX Giga Jacker – Projectile invincible from startup until rebound after hit, move is projectile invincible
EX Giga Jacker - Damage 120->180
EX Giga Jacker - Hit causes untechable knockdown
EX Giga Jacker - Bound when hitting airborne opponent
- I never used this move much, but it seems to get quite the upgrade here. Big damage boost, and the projectile invincibility is a no-brainer. No more crossup+tag shenanigans though. Boo.

Granchi Cannon - Move is +2 on block (was -5)
- I guess we can fish with this move more often?

Giga Meteo – First hit doesn’t use midair combo count (???)
Giga Meteo - If first hit connects midair it causes bound
**- In plain english this basically means we can juggle with super. **

Flying Cask – Damage 120->130
Quarter Deck – Damage 120->130
- More damaging throws! It isn’t much, but I’ll take it. I still say flying cask show allow limited juggles afterward a la Tekken. hehe.

METER GAIN BUFFS
Spinner Ball: On hit 0->15×2(30)
Lyonnaise Break: whiff 5->10
Perfect Press: whiff 5->20
Perfect Press: On hit 40->45
Panini Flip: whiff 5->20
Cracker: whiff 10->15
Pound Cake: whiff 5->15
Cracker Jacker: whiff 5->20
Langue Washer: whiff 5->10
Spiral Rocky: whiff 5->10
Granchi Cannon: whiff 5->15
Apres Sweep : whiff 5->15
Cutting Coppa: whiff 5->10
Giga Jacker: On hit 40->50
- The trend here seems to be improving the meter gain on whiffed specials. Mostly only by a tiny bit. It’s nice, but most of these are stupidly unsafe on whiff anyway.

BOB NERFS
Close/Far LP – Hurt box enlarged
- I guess this is ok? Honestly I think everyone should get this nerf.

Cracker – Causes lower float on midair hit
Cracker - Fall speed slowed
- This one breaks my heart. One of my favorite things was to punish jump-ins with cracker into combo. It was flashy, and was basically a reward for getting cracker to work as an AA. I guess with the improved cracker, they didn’t want this to stick around. :sad: I honestly don’t know if it’s worth it?

Spiral Rocky - Removed invincibility
- This too hurts me bad. I loved bullying people trying to DP>tag on wakeup with my own spiral rocky into tag. I thought it was an insanely fair move, but now it’s the most invincible move in the game nerfed down to no invincibility at all. :sad: Honestly though, when I first saw Heihachi unblockable chrome dome buff, I immediately though of spiral rocky > tag > unblockable chrome dome. I guess that would be too cheap if NOTHING could beat spiral rocky?

Granchi Cannon - Only counter hit causes crumple
- I hate this. Wallbounce may lead to awesome things, I don’t know yet, but I do know that I designed my team around granchi loops. Feels like I wasted my time learning how to do it lol

Far HP – Push back on block when used in boost combo reduced
- fair enough. Honestly surprised there’s no mention of close s.MP.

cr. HP - Damage 90->80
j. HK – Damage 100->90
- Hello lower damage BnBs! :wink: All in all it’s no big deal though.

METER GAIN NERFS
Spinner Ball: whiff 10->5
Lyonnaise Break: On hit 40->25
Panini Flip: On hit 30+20+20(70)->15×3(45)
Cracker: On hit 40->30
Pound Cake: On hit 40->30
Langue Washer: On hit 40->25
Spiral Rocky: On hit 20×4(80)->10×4(40)
Granchi Cannon: On hit 40->30
Cutting Coppa: On hit 30->25
Giga Jacker: whiff 15->0
Cracker: On hit 40->30
- The trend here is that meter gain was reduced on basically all special move hits. Was this done across the board? Or was Bob really too good of a battery?

BOB NOT SURE IF BUFF/NERF?
Granchi Cannon – Hit causes wall bounce
- Like I said, this may be super awesome, I dunno yet?

cr. HP - Changed way move overlaps with others / push hitbox (???)
**- no idea! **

Spiral Rocky – Blow back on hit modified (???)
**- I guess we’ll have to wait and see? **

Granchi Cannon - Changed midair combo count
- This might actually be great (was 4JP/3JA). But hopefully it’s not for the worse. Perhaps 4/1? (wallbounce loops? lol)

Overall I gotta say the nerfs really suck for me. I know I know… there are tons of buffs, and I should be thankful for the walk buff alone. but it’s just that they nerfed all the cool quirky stuff that I loved doing. hehe

I am also surprised that NOTHING was done for perfect press? That move is garbage! Oh wait, I was wrong… +5 meter on hit, +15 meter on whiff. Thanks capcom. :wink:

I also think we have to be on the lookout for hidden changes. I know when UMvC3 dropped, there were FAR more MODOK changes than they told us about. I have even heard of a stealth nerf to cracker in one of the more recent updates?

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Added updates to system and gem changes to first post.

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Good write-ups, overall I’m actually pretty happy with the changes, he seems like he’s becoming a very solid point character. Although I’m pretty bummed too that he loses a few shenanigans. But oki spiral rocky > tag was pretty broke.

I can deal with nerf to LP hurt box, especially since they haven’t announced anything about changing the hit box, which is amazing. But I wouldn’t count on boost cl.MP staying the same since a few people are saying that there are loads of stealth boost nerfs on top of the announced ones.

Cr.MP is going to be amazing, and honestly I’m going to use fast break all the time now. The b+MP is cancel-able too, so you can either go for a mid into combo or cancel into a quick low. Plus I just noticed that the third hit of FB looks like he’s ducking into a special step, lol. Gunna be a dirty mixup in the corner.

I think the slower fall speed on cracker is of his opponent? I think it’s a buff so even though it knocks the opponent lower, it trades less and lets the opponent fall more naturally into juggles with cr.HP and pound cake.

5

Added changes not included in SRK article

UPDATED Forward recovery roll - A hurtbox will appear in the 7 frames when Forward Recovery ends, and the player will be able to block.
Forward recovery roll - Rolling character will be throwable in the 10 frames at the end of the roll and throw escapes will not be possible.

Does this mean we can no longer punish rolls with attacks? I hope not!

I also hope that we can still juggle after AA cracker… :sad:

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I’m confused since those weren’t in any of the SRK articles, where did you find them? The only exact quote I had found was that rolls now made a character’s hurt box appear 7 frames before they could do anything.

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^ It was on eventhubs.

From the sounds of it, we won’t be punishing rolls anymore? Sure you could punish with throw, but only if you hang back and not apply pressure.

I don’t know why they did a 180 on this… I loved the idea of being able to punish rolls. :sad:

8

Oh I see. Hmm, it doesn’t sound too bad, I guess it’s just a moderate approach to tweaking rolls. Honestly I’m a fan of any moderation when it comes to tweaks to capcom games. It looks like you’re forced to take a mix up if you forward roll. Plus you have a whole ten frames now where you can be hit with a throw removing all your recoverable health. You might have to give up some pressure if you want the option of threatening rolls, but that was the entire point of rolls in the first place. It’s just not as ridiculous now

9

I’m wondering how to best take advantage of this… and with Bob I’m thinking it’s just going to be to just hang back and walk-up throw? I fear that other characters with crap walkspeed (yay not Bob anymore! lol) will have an even harder time punishing the rolls now.

But then there will be others that could use throw specials… Hugo running grab, Gief SPD, King might swing, Kuma, Basically the grapplers I guess.

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But no character should have a harder time punishing rolls, considering they didn’t get better in any way. Rolls now kind of remind me of standing straight up on wake up in the tekken series. It gets you out of most dangerous situations that involve heavy damage, but they force you to remain passive against strong mix ups (high/low) and have specific punishes against them (throws in the case of SFxT.)

Mess around with Bob’s nj.HK and cr.LK/far.LK > target combo. Pretty sure if you time both correctly they can be very forgiving when it comes to rolls. Plus j.HK has super far reach (about f.LK distance) and can be done super low to the ground. You can also try experimenting with spinner ball option selects. They should catch roll and staying still. Also option select special step into granchi cannon would leave you at +2 or more and wallbounce them if they do anything but block.

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Oh totally… I was thinking OS swift step would leave you in a favorable position regardless, but I’m also thinking some character will be able to straight up punish rolls. Dunno about Bob (maybe with the far j.RH and then throw if they roll? Or even just dashing?) but other character might have a much easier time.

Nina dash grab thingie? Bryan jumping knee grab thing? Akuma raging demon? Doesn’t Steve have some sort of dashing high grab thing too? Stuff like that.

Someone with a shit walkspeed though and no good grab attacks… they’re probably going to have to hang back and trying to scout the roll if they want to land the throw. Sure they can probably get free pressure, but straight up punish? I dunno. (Paul? Heihachi? I dunno).

Just thinking aloud here though… I could be wrong.

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Not wrong at all, I actually get what you’re saying. I think the main problem was how they originally announced the very specific punishable hurt box that would occur if you rolled, so everybody started thinking of ways to punish that with option selects.

Then, capcom turns it completely around and says “well, we really aren’t giving you the option to punish them THAT hard.” :confused:

I mean even in the cases that you mentioned, Bryan’s knee, Nina’s grab, Steve’s command grab, are all high grabs, which I’m not sure would connect on whatever throwable hurt box there happens to be (although Akuma RD will probably be super scary there.) And even if they do connect the grabs are pretty minor punishes with the exception of Steve’s grab. The way I see it is that “okay, you chose to roll? Then you gave up the option of any reversal or backdash. And if you were trying to escape and tag out and I read it? I just took all you’re recoverable life.”

I dunno, personally I hate reversals with a passion, so I’m glad they made it so if you roll you give up that option.

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“Hurt box appears 1F later” is an awkward way of saying that the move has 1 additional frame of invincibility.

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Wow, I know I made a huge post with all my thoughts on his changes but I forget where, in the main thread maybe? Anyway, thanks for all the delicious info Nos and glad to see you will be trying this again come the patch.

I have a feeling Bob is going to be absolute baller, as he was lucky enough to be so underrated in this game he received more buffs than he deserved, and some of the most interesting on the roster in terms of quality changes. I might even get to C rank with my Raven/Bob if I practice. Sheesh took my 9 months to find a team >>

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

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Did 623+K, MP ahve any frame advatage on block tweaks? I know it lost all invincibility but it should still be a good Switch move. Sucks I can’t get anymore of those sick punishes anymore when I take a risk and they throw somethign out.

16

Kinda, Spiral Rocky is getting a reduction in recovery frames but they have not been specific to the number to my knowledge. Blowback on hit modified but again unclear on the specifics. The invincibility nerf is huge though because even though it is still his go to switch cancel on block opponents no longer have to respect it as much. Only thing going for it is with the buffing of his blockstrings and abilities to go into SS pressure, he has more opportunities to bust it out.

17

What buff to block strings? S.lp and c.mp got better, but I dunno if I’d consider that a significant buff to his block strings or ability to go into SS? I guess there is the inclusion of fast break now…

In fact, if boosted s.mp got nerfed, I woukd consider that quite the nerf to his block strings. . Boosted close s.mp is the tits lol

18

Tits indeed, I’m pretty sad about that. Still he can boost into f.MK which is good, plus st.LP is 4 frames now so he can get into fast break easily. True block string from cr.LP.

I would definitely say he gets more SS stuff with fast break. The final hit looks exactly like step.

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Im hoping these spiral rocky changes are to make it be able to combo afterward. ima miss the invinciblity on it. its the only thing i can think of with whats happening to it.

BOB SAGAT WILL RULE.

20

Okay, so here we go with some thoughts:

Fast break is as amazing as I thought, but the overhead has pretty limited range. You can combo into DP+K, LP off the overhead, but it has to be the light or medium version. Hard special step into langue washer doesn’t connect. Since st.LP is 4 frames now, it makes for a very powerful up-close mix up, especially with LP, b+MP being cancelable as well.

Speaking of st.LP, it’s honestly just as good as 2012. I was doing just fine abusing st.LP into chain combos like it was vanilla. Plus it’s 4 frames now so it’s almost more of a buff.

His new walk speed gives him even more powerful footsies. I was easily beating out most characters spacing and threatening with st.HP xx launch, or cr.MP, or just straight up going into st.MK gaufrettes strings .

Giga jacker is hard knockdown on grounded opponents, but does a lot more damage. Takes away tag cancel shenanigans but honestly it was probably the most gimmicky of his strategies. I won’t particularly miss it. Plus it still ground bounces on airborne for a follow up combo on tag cancel. Didn’t mess with the complete projectile invulnerability.

Spiral rocky got beaten out a lot, but I was also able to get people to hesitate quite a bit in order to abuse it here an there, so not unusable. Also, since rolls count as your reversal, it is still a viable strat to OS special step if you sense a roll coming and bust out spiral rocky so they are forced to block or get hit.

I think the biggest buff to Bob was his combo/filler damage. After launch I was using cl.HP, CADC, cr.HP xx cracker > poundcake. For a two bar super combo, post-launch, I was landing cl.HP xx granchi cannon, cr.HP xx super for nearly 600 damage. I didn’t get to try it but I’m also sure cl.HP xx granchi, relaunch would work.

He gets a lot better tag cancel options now though with cl.HP xx spiral rocky, tag. Super simple 220 damage with a great tag cancel set up for every single character.

Oh, and boosted cl.MP is still completely safe…lol.