I actually managed one in some uber-casual matches against a friend over live. It’s really useful stuff, which is kind of breaking the mold as far as my Vega game.
it seems like this particular setup is vulnerable to wakeup super (lk or mk version) from sagat. you won’t be able to land in time and super will catch you in the air. regardless of whether you decide to use j.MP instead of j.HP or j.HK
hm there really is a lot of info here over just one setup. perhaps we should create a separate safe-jumping thread and update the first post as people find new discoveries?
That’s probably a good idea. We need to spent some quality time testing it out with other characters first, I think-
I spent alot of time testing out the back throw jump mp setup, and made a new thread to post all the results since it was a ton of info. If someone else wants to make a more general safe jump thread for Vega, they can just consolidate my thread into theirs. I just don’t have any experience with the other setups so I didn’t want to be the one to do it.
I know this is a general and very broad question, but I really have ZERO experience against console characters in Tokyo. I’m about to enter a console tourney (Godsgarden) and was just curious if anyone had any advice / tips / cautions against console characters (esp. Seth). I honestly have little to no experience, and only read a few things here on the forums.
Appreciated!
PS Thanks Deuy! A lot of info indeed… but definitely worth the read
Go here and watch some of the Vega vs (character) videos.
http://streetfighterdojo.com/sf4/characters/vega.html
You can find better, more recent videos, bu looking in those characters’ forums on this site.
A couple tips:
vs Cammy: dont let her get inside, watch out for her hooligan (canninball) throw, punish it on reaction with ST or if its too late a cr.MP will hit it or at least make your hitbox change safely. Focus attacks can sometimes be useful against her cannon drill and overhead attacks. Cannon spike will beat your FBA easily. Cammys like to dash in after a focus and throw. Bait and punish cannon spikes
vs Seth: Fight him carefully and a bit like Dhalsim since he has that teleport and long limbs. He has low life, so just be careful and kill him with precision.
vs Sakura: The main danger with sakura is letting her dash behind you for combo resets. Learn when she does this. jumping HP will stuff her cr.HP but her cr.HP usually stuffs your FBA. Do not try to izuna grab her out of a focus attack. If she has ex meter, she likes to do her ex tatsu kick things immediately to keep pressure on you after you block or get hit.
Rose and Fei Long are both good at getting you to poke them exactly when they want you to, so sometimes resist the urge and do something else. Rose likes to throw after slides, carefully (and patiently) get away from her. Im pretty sure izuna vortex works better against rose than fei long.
Gen, eh, just understand what his moves look like and dont get tricked by silly stuff like off-the wall dive-kicks. He likes to try to do crossups a lot, so be prepared to air grab!
Gouken: First off, know that a regular throw can lead to his ultra, so expect them. Second, he has this instant absorb-and counter attack, but a jumpback HP will not get hit by it! Also goukens like to throw fireballs a lot because they are so damn used to it. Be ready to punish some of his slower stuff with ultra, but dont get baited. He has an air-to-ground grab move just like Akuma.
vs Dan: Dan has this weird aerial kick that works like a mini tiger knee. Play him extremely hard, smart,and carefully like your life depends on it, and there is no way you’ll lose. He relies a bit on people underestimating him, but just dont and youll be fine.
Dan’s aerial kick special does not break focus; only breaks when it’s used on the ground. Keep that in mind.
Simple Q:Is Arcade Vega better than Console Vega?
I heard something about Arcade Vega being better then Console Vega is this true?
i dont understand something with framedata.
reading frame stuff a ji.:hp: creates an 18 frame hit stun, lets say you do it it 13 frames before landing, it hits on the last frame so you put enemy in hit stun 4 frames before you land.
Cosmic heel (DF.:hk:) has a 14 frames start-up so in the above scenario, you have a 1 frame leeway to input the command and it should combo on the last frame of enemy’s hitstun.
So far i couldn’t pull it once on the dummy, what data is it that i miss that explains why you can’t combo ji.:hp: into DF.:Hk:, probably the same stuff would explain why ji.:hp:,cl:hp: isn’t a blockstring.
You can combo jump-forward :hp: into Cosmic Heel, you just have to do the air attack really deep (more trouble than it’s worth, imo).
I’ve never done the math with the frame data, but you CAN combo ji fierce into Cosmic Heel. The fierce has to hit really late, just before you land.
I’ve never heard this before, anyone else? Aside from not having to deal with online lag so your izuna drop can be more consistent.
thanks a lot for the info, i do agree it is purely for knowledge, vega jumps in are already not that good, trying to hit deep with the ji.:hp: to combo into a CH is not worth the risk of eating a Srk fadc ultra…
another question, if you allow me, what is the diffrence between a “true” block string and a… blockstring in the general sense, we give to it (this refers to the article “overcoming plateaus” , in which they say dictator’s lk.SK xx lk.SK xx lk.SK isn’t a true blockstring).
is vega c.:lp: c.:lp: a true block string ?
is vega c.:mk: c::lp: a true blockstring (on the characters against whom it connects of course) ?
is c.:lp: xx lp-RCF a true block string ?
how many frames of startup out of enemy blockstun can there be for a blockstring to remain a "true blockstring " ?
Basically, a block string is any string of attacks that forces the opponent to block (or get hit in earlier games). So, Ken’s chained low :lp: would be a block string. Bison’s :lk: Scissors is at 0 frame advantage on block, so the opponent can retaliate; not a “true” block string. IIRC, Vega’s only block strings are meaty low :mk: xx :lp: RCF, meaty low :mp: (done close) xx :lp: RCF and forward-jump :hp: (either late or meaty for reliability) -> close :hp: xx :lp: RCF. Everything else leaves a gap where the opponent can attack. Also, :hp: RCF and EX RCF act like a block string if you can land them and close :hp: xx :mp: RCF is a block string until the claw strike, which has a 1 frame gap.
For a block string to occur, your next attack needs to start-up before the opponent has left block stun so he’s unable to get an attack off. Unfortunately, with SF4’s auto-guard system, an opponent can mash buttons in a block string and still be safe, effectively weakening the tactic (imo, ofc).
ken and ryu’s c.forward shuts down my footsies game. Getting in range is near impossible with that damn foot, it’s fast and out prioritises my other pokes which don’t seem to reach. I haven’t found a counter to it other than df.forward which if blocked gets me punished, or srk’d in the middle of it. All a ryu has to do to beat me is stay crouched, throw out a few c.forwards, random srks, and land a tick throws. I know slide can stuff it but only if it’s psychic otherwise slide is super unsafe. It’s a guessing game where the odds are weighted against me. One wrong guess bam, I’m eating ultra.
I can handle the crossup, tick throw/srk pressure but I have no idea what to do against super turtle ryu. Most of the ryu’s I play now are what I call down backers, cause that’s all they do is hold down back. Why the hell doesn’t vega have an overhead???
Having POM as an overhead won’t help much if at all. CH, st lk, back throw into safe jump, and vortex are things that help make this match manageable.
Oh and read this btw. If it is true then you should be happy
thanks a lot view619, very cool of you to answer that question, what came to my mind immediatly after your post is "omfg vega’s blockstrings are so short how the heck can we build a ‘hit-confirm’ combo that doesn’t involve a RCF FADC so 50% meter.
so basically the best meterless safe combo we have is ji.:hp: c.:mp: xx Light RCF which does a puny 258 damage and 396 stun and leaves us with a +2 frame advance at best not even a possibility for a knockdown. this is barely better that a simple st.:hk: followup (210 , 400, -2 frame adv)
every thing else we do is either heavily punishable on recovery or has gaps on block, gaps in which technically anyother toon in the game can finish the code for a an invincible reversal move that will shut us down, or worse open the way for a juggle into their ultra.
having no blockstrings and 1 or 2 frames links also explain why people with poor execution like me can’t build meter…
this probably explains why even at high level play you can’t really do much with vega outside of punishing mistakes of the opponent.
If you are not 100% sure you hit with the combo starter you can fall into a block and by the time your brain gets that data you already committed into the second move and canceled it into something the enemy can punish (light RCF being the only exception)
that really doesn’t suffer comparison with shotos mashing jab hitconfirm into srk then juggling into whatever you like. But chun-li and balrog also register for mashbutton hit-confirm blockstrings.
on second thoughts : maybee if we stir hitconfirm to the edge of humanly possible reaction time we could consider that we can do the following.
ji.:hp: , c.:mk:, in the case of cancelling this c.:mk: into a special the time elapsed (~ 10 frames) between hit of the j.:hp:, and the execution of the code for a c.:mk: cancel into special is too short to take any “decision”.
But in the event of a planned link (or stop) after the full c.:mk: recovery, extends the duration of the while between, ji.:hp: and the execution of the followup (block or link into for example c.:lp: xx EX FBA) to ~35 frames, giving the time for most people to actually decide how to follow.
which would lead to that
ji.:HP: hit, c.:mk: hit, c.:lp: xx EX-FBA
ji.:HP: blocked, c.:mk: hit, back into mindgame (missed opportunity for a combo)
ji.:HP: blocked, c.:mk: blocked, back into mindgame
and avoid the unwanted
ji.:hp: blocked, c.:mk: blocked, c.:lp: stuffed by enemy’s Shoryuken
and
Ji.:hp: blocked, c.:mk: blocked xx heavy ST blocked, punishe don recovery by enemy combo.
in my (limited) experience, there is a range at which c.:mp: beats shotos’ c.mk reliably, with claw on vega’s c.:mp: has slightly superior range, the optimal range leeway is something like 2 graduations of trainning stage, so if your are farther that this optimal range you whiff your c.:mp: and you get punished, if you are closer, you are inside c.:mk: range and this moves has a better priority than our c.:mp:
the unfair thing is that even if we do evaluate the range properly for the c.:mp: it can only be exploited if you have meter since we can combo nothing else but EX FBA after that since we are so near c.:mp: max range.
the other way to exploit that, is that most shotos at my level, always follow their c.:mk: with a fireball since it is perfectly safe, if it connects the fireball goes away very early after vega’s blockstun , if they whiff nothing goes. but we have EX ST and EX RCF which both are invulnerable to fireballs, usually vega can’t use gaps in “not perfect blockstring” because he has no fast startup moves.
but EX-ST is invincible for the first 4 frames and EX RCF in invicible to fireball for full duration., so it is possible to punish their fireball trigger happy habit, the timing is difficult, but i have done it (dunno if cancel was optimal on shoto’s side though) and my execution level is shit, so people with good execution can probably do this reliably (providing it does require the other guy to be crap at cancellling). the main obstacle being having the charge ready, we can’t really mash a reversal like a shoto would, we have only one single attempt.
Okay, so just got back from a two week long business trip… two weeks without being home, playing SF, or having an ounce of time to log on to shoryuken (we worked 11 hour days).
What did I miss about Vega in the last two weeks? Any great updates on his SSIV build? I saw the safe jump guide after a back throw… good stuff…
No great updates. They’ve stopped EX SHC going through the opponent. This can work good in some cases. Bad in others.
By the looks of things, his ultra 2 has been changed from speculated QCF x2, to Bison (Dic) motion (Probably easiest way to put it).
Still, 11 hour days, I feel for you. Though regardless, welcome back.
i Think some character should always be charge no matter what game or vision (DJ, Guile, Vega etc)
why some are mix (Chun-li) also i think some motion or direction character should have charge ultra and some grappler character should be mix with charge and QCF motion for variety.
Realistically what combos and links should I practice and what should I ignore with claw? Lots of the stuff in challenge mode worthless. I really like j fr, cl fr, cr hp xx EX FBA, just because it looks sick as shit. Also I realize anything where you can hit confirm with cr mp and go into something else (FBA or ST) is something I should learn too.
I’m just curious what are the best ones to really try to learn for helping my combo execution.