Vega Q&A: Ask simple questions here!

[Meteo2]

SC is easier to land after a quick focus crumple, in my opinion. You can safely dash back after the focus attack and then react with SC if you landed a crumple. With BHC you usually need to dash forward into your opponent after a focus attack in order to have a chance to follow up with it - which is problematic if you are not sure you caught them with the focus when you did it.

SC is more useful as a deterrent in a lot of matchups. Without it the opponent is free to do giant highly-visible meaties (since BHC gets stuffed by everything AND then you lose it), and jump in on every wakeup however they want to. BHC only really deters full screen fireballs, because SC deters them at close and mid range anyway.

Thats why I use it more. Never tried hitting crossups with BHC yet and that sounds interesting. I also use BHC sometimes vs Viper/Dhalsim

[Worm]

Woah, I thought BHC didn’t lose the ultra until it got to the wall.

[pedoviejo]

SC is easier to land after a quick focus crumple, in my opinion. You can safely dash back after the focus attack and then react with SC if you landed a crumple. With BHC you usually need to dash forward into your opponent after a focus attack in order to have a chance to follow up with it - which is problematic if you are not sure you caught them with the focus when you did it.

SC is more useful as a deterrent in a lot of matchups. Without it the opponent is free to do giant highly-visible meaties (since BHC gets stuffed by everything AND then you lose it), and jump in on every wakeup however they want to. BHC only really deters full screen fireballs, because SC deters them at close and mid range anyway.

Thats why I use it more. Never tried hitting crossups with BHC yet and that sounds interesting. I also use BHC sometimes vs Viper/Dhalsim

But here is the thing. Once they know the match up, they wont be doing things that could put them in a situation where I can land SC. People who are starting to wise up in the game and to the match up are starting to learn that you dont have to jump every knock down, in fact the best pressue possible is done through the ground if its not a safe jump. So against bad players, then yes its great, and it stops them from doing stupid shit. But against smarter opponents, they are not putting themselves in that position with or with out SC. Eliminating what SC was originally intended to do, stop stupid shit on wake up.

[Worm]

I guess I’ll have to learn to love SC. psh.

[pedoviejo]

I guess I’ll have to learn to love SC. psh.

You dont have to unless you are playing opponents that dont do stupid shit what so ever, but who here can honestly say that?

[pedoviejo]

@Joz, Sasaki, or Tatsu

I have a question.

What to do once your opponent learns to shut down your Kara-throw. As in they are not putting themselves in a position to get kara-thrown, and refuse to get kara-thrown. At first i thought he was just guessing when i kara-threw. So i simply started using cr.lp - cst.hp or st.hk to punish something like that in case he guessed or OS tech. But he always blocked, and its that he is actually reacting to it every time. he also often avoid it to with neutral jump, back dash, or if i mix it up with CH no matter how sparingly I use it, or how I set it up, he simply focus and punish everytime. Sure I can play footsies, and im fine with that because that can never fail me, and thats how i often beat him now. But the problem is that one slip up, and it becomes really hard to start the offense again without throw, especially CH pressure, especially when he uses his main Adon and he wont allow me to even attempt an offense without risking something big. What would you do if your opponent reacted to every CH with focus attack and teched ever kara-throw/throw

[Sasaki]

There might be a couple of things that you’re missing. Really, the best thing you could do is rewatch your matches against him carefully and take notes on these things:

• Are you always using df.HK after you step into a certain range or after ending a certain attack string?
• Are you punishing your opponent on his dash recovery when he attempts a random focus attack to catch your cosmic heel?
• Did you ever try jumping in the middle of your attack string?
• Are you always kara throwing after a fixed series of blocked attacks?
• Are you stopping a combo or ending your momentum prematurely to see how he reacts to pressure? And if so, are you actually trying to punish him for his escape attempts instead of going for the throw every time you get the chance to?

[pedoviejo]

There might be a couple of things that you’re missing. Really, the best thing you could do is rewatch your matches against him carefully and take notes on these things:

• Are you always using df.HK after you step into a certain range or after ending a certain attack string?
• Are you punishing your opponent on his dash recovery when he attempts a random focus attack to catch your cosmic heel?
• Did you ever try jumping in the middle of your attack string?
• Are you always kara throwing after a fixed series of blocked attacks?
• Are you stopping a combo or ending your momentum prematurely to see how he reacts to pressure? And if so, are you actually trying to punish him for his escape attempts instead of going for the throw every time you get the chance to?

I have. I have looked at them, and keep going over them. And he does FA feints only at a distance where i cant do anything about it because im not holding down back. He knows if he does it in front of me he gets thrown/st.hk/cst.hp, and rearly does it now. When i stop pressure and see how he reacts, he isnt afraid to just sit there. In fact everytime i do this we sit there staring at each other. its gotten to the point where im at max distance and he isnt pushing anything, I poke he blocks he then moves and pokes. Even at max distance he simply techs it. He only back dashes when its safe as well. If im right next to him he wont back dash. If im at max distacne kara-throw he will occasionaly back dash, but he recently stoped that once i started using st.hp and st.mk to punish him for doing that. And for CH no matter how i set it up, if he is standing he simply does FA. I can only use CH to attempt to punish a coutner poke, on his wake up, or to punish a whiffed move.

But i havent tried nuetral jumping in a while. I used to do that, and he always did hk.Rising Jaguar, or just blocked and didnt push anything. Ive also tried over head, but he just focuses that to also.

So in short he is willing not to push any buttons and take a lot of RCF chip damage, just so I cant land CH, or karathrow/throw.

[MILF]

my 2 cent
St.lk (into throw Cr.mp, Cr.hp, st.lk)
Df.mk(into throw, Cr.lp xx Ex FBA or EX SHC)
Cr.Mk > st.hk

[Sasaki]

If he uses FA-faints outside your range try using df.HK to get closer to him as he backdashes.

Maybe you’re not baiting him properly. What I mean by that is that he knows which one you’ll be going for (df.HK or kara throw) by the way you move. Idk, I would have to see your matches to help.

[pedoviejo]

let me record some then.

[Ajunta]

Well, i am just being an ass, but since people can apparently react on a cr.lp hit to hit confirm, so something around 12 frames to react, there is no reason why some people couldn’t focus a CH on reaction with its 14 frames of startup.

As for your kara throw/throw being systematically teched but apparently on reaction I beg to disagree. What i think this guy is doing is capitalizing on vega kara throw setups being pretty predictables.

Element 1 : Vega tick throws setups are lame in the sense he doesn’t have a lot of strings that allow him to kara throw with a lot of timing mi xup. When chun li cancels jabs 4 time in a row she can insert a throw instead of any of those jabs or after them and on the receiving end you can only attempt to tech 2 out of 5, so you are bound to guess. If vega cr.jab you twice he can insert a throw or karathrow instead of any of them or after them, but you can tech all three and you don’t need to guess.

**Element 2 **: Since you can tech all of vega attempts to a throw you can systematically go for it. So your guy just techs everything.

Element 3 : You tried to trick him with a mid range 4 framer instead of a karathrow every now and then to punish his systematic tech attempts but it was systematically blocked.

Conclusion : He lates OS autoblock/tech everything. If you throw a 4 framer you hit block and his late tech input is discarded since he is in blockstun. If you go for a throw and especially a slower kara-throw the late teching is registered and he techs everything.

**Solution **: When you try to trap him at teching during your throw setups use a slower move or delay your 4 framer. cls.mp, cls.mk or 8 framers might be good candidates, that will beat late teching. And from that point onward he doesn’t have a automatic procedure that beat all your option so he is not immuned to your mind games anymore and can be thrown again.

If on the other hand he switches to systematic backdash when you come in karathrow range CH, fst.mk or fst.Hp will pin him down depending on the time frame of the backdash. oO course those are pretty risky if he just blocks.

But eh that’s why good players are good, you can’t break their guard without putting yourself in a position where you could pay it.

[pedoviejo]

Well, i am just being an ass, but since people can apparently react on a cr.lp hit to hit confirm, so something around 12 frames to react, there is no reason why some people couldn’t focus a CH on reaction with its 14 frames of startup.

As for your kara throw/throw being systematically teched but apparently on reaction I beg to disagree. What i think this guy is doing is capitalizing on vega kara throw setups being pretty predictables.

makes sense although ive have tried and used so many diffrent thing set ups, and he still escapes me.

Element 1 : Vega tick throws setups are lame in the sense he doesn’t have a lot of strings that allow him to kara throw with a lot of timing mi xup. When chun li cancels jabs 4 time in a row she can insert a throw instead of any of those jabs or after them and on the receiving end you can only attempt to tech 2 out of 5, so you are bound to guess. If vega cr.jab you twice he can insert a throw or karathrow instead of any of them or after them, but you can tech all three and you don’t need to guess.

**Element 2 **: Since you can tech all of vega attempts to a throw you can systematically go for it. So your guy just techs everything.

Element 3 : You tried to trick him with a mid range 4 framer instead of a karathrow every now and then to punish his systematic tech attempts but it was systematically blocked.

Conclusion : He lates OS autoblock/tech everything. If you throw a 4 framer you hit block and his late tech input is discarded since he is in blockstun. If you go for a throw and especially a slower kara-throw the late teching is registered and he techs everything.

I thought he was, but ive tried to punish those things and no succes. cr.lp - cst.hp is really good for this or max range jump in hk/hp - Cosmic Heel. but they are not working. I do however land walk up cr.mk a lot during footsies. So it makes me want to think that he is late stand teching which is the best possible way to tech.

**Solution **: When you try to trap him at teching during your throw setups use a slower move or delay your 4 framer. cls.mp, cls.mk or 8 framers might be good candidates, that will beat late teching. And from that point onward he doesn’t have a automatic procedure that beat all your option so he is not immuned to your mind games anymore and can be thrown again.

Ive tried all that.
st.lk - cr.mk (this hurts if i land the cr.mk, and this one works quite a bit)
cst.hp - cr.mk/walk up Cosmic Heel
cr.lk - st.mk
cst.mp - st.hp
cst.mk - cr.mk
cr.lp xx hp.RCF
ive even tried using slide traps and things like walk up cr.lp - st.lp - walk up cr.lp - walk up cr.lp - etc. he even techs walk up regular throw/cr.mk/nuetral jump

If on the other hand he switches to systematic backdash when you come in karathrow range CH, fst.mk or fst.Hp will pin him down depending on the time frame of the backdash. oO course those are pretty risky if he just blocks.

For a while this worked wonders. Now, sadly it doesnt, he will just block. Ive gone games where i dont even throw once or Cosmic Heel unless it was punishment or a straight out counter poke.

But eh that’s why good players are good, you can’t break their guard without putting yourself in a position where you could pay it.

if i can get life lead, i can usually win and make him eat a lot of things. But this is teaching me one thing i thought I had down decently. I not capitalizing of his tiny mistakes on the scale that i should be capitalizing. AA everything, reacting to pokes, capitilizing of every cr.lp which should end in Izuna drop. Its also making my footsies better to. But its making me a much better player though. but i still need to know if its really me. I look at my vids and i try to be as unpredictable with the damn throw and Cosmic Heel’s. Im also starting to think that im going to have to waltz in and out of his poke range and grab him when he tries to poke or do something like that. I do it now and it works to some degree, but not always, and i think he is starting to wise up to.

[Sasaki]

Element 1 : Vega tick throws setups are lame in the sense he doesn’t have a lot of strings that allow him to kara throw with a lot of timing mi xup. When chun li cancels jabs 4 time in a row she can insert a throw instead of any of those jabs or after them and on the receiving end you can only attempt to tech 2 out of 5, so you are bound to guess. If vega cr.jab you twice he can insert a throw or karathrow instead of any of them or after them, but you can tech all three and you don’t need to guess.

Element 2 : Since you can tech all of vega attempts to a throw you can systematically go for it. So your guy just techs everything.

Uhh… what? lol. Why would the opponent not need to guess?

[Ajunta]

Well i can see why you don’t get my point sasaki.

Technically he should have to guess at least at every move.

BUT eventually every thing in this game always revolves around

option A beats option B
option D beats Option A
but option C beats option D ,
though Option C loses to option B.

Any complexification of that system is basically irrelevant since any new move always fall under A<->C or B<->D or in the category where it may beat opposition but in an unpredictable manner and is basically a utter random gamble.

When vega is in range for a throw/karathrow.

He is at a range where cr.lp, cst.lp, cr.lk and st.hk only are somehow safe to poke, everything else (and even st.hk) is either statistically dangerous or heavily punishable on block.

cls.lk/st.lk is unreliable because you are around the range where you might get the cls.lk and whiff it because you are in fact in a range where vega should use fst.lk

cls.mk or cls.mp are somehow intresting but I know very few people and that include me who can use them naturally during footsies or throw set ups.

So on the receiving end the mix up is not too difficult to decypher.
You expect 9 times out of 10 something in the following taste because these options are safe on vega’s side we use them as long as we don’t need to resort to something more fool hardy.

Walk up karathrow/throw and that doesn’t beat OS autoblock <-> stand up walk up late throw
Walk up + fast mid range poke and that doesn’t beat OS autoblock <-> stand up walk up late throw .
Walk up block and that loses to OS autoblock <-> stand up walk up late throw.
Walk up focus backdash loses to OS autoblock <-> stand up walk up late throw.

Other options might cause a surprise and on occasion beat the OS but are pretty risky So naturally advanced player will be reluctant to use them right off the bat.

Walk up block offset throw doesn’t beat the OS and is risky
Walk up + slow moves loses to the OS and is opening the guy for even more dangerous counters.
Walk up + backflip/backdash doesn’t beat the OS and are risky.
Walk up + jump out rising arc HP doesn’t beat the OS and is risky.
Walk up + jump in and rising arc HP beats the OS but is heavily punishable on landing.

PoM, cls.mp,cls.mk,fst.mk and a few other things beat the OS often but can be stuffed more easily that the usual bread and butter short range pokes, do not cause any major threat and don’t put vega in a favorable position onward. So they are an acceptable risk.

So even if on the paper there is no way to know for sure, and even if technically on the receiving end of a walk up karathow mixup you need to guess, It is very safe to bet on the Option Select once you have the skill and vega match up knowledge to pull it. And you can capitalize on that until vega uses 70 hp moves for around 70% of his karathrow mix up opportunities.

As for blockstrings : it is pretty obvious you have tons of frames between 2 blocked vega’s cr.lp (~24 frames) to input the Option select at every single iteration, it is much more difficult to do that on a chun-li jab that comes out every ~10 frames. So in the end tick throw setups from vega obey a very similar flowchart.

To summarise the guy has a one procedure that keep him in a rather safe position until a given distance regardless of frame advantage, until the vega player resorts to low reward low risk moves or high reward high risks setups and I think that is the ultimate goal of any good defense , force the other guy to gamble more often than you have to.

To me it is just a high skill 8000+ BP dudes fast paced version of the : - “do I dp or do I I hug db on wake up dilemma”

[Vegaman]

stand up walk up late throw.

i abuse the hell outta this… i almost always get at least 3 throws by varying my spacing and timing of throws on oki. i usually go for a 4th but by then i’m either getting teched or hit lol. i’ll make it look like i’m going for a 5th and then just walk up block. that works a lot too.

[pedoviejo]

So does BHC have invul frames at any point during start up? My friend did this with seth

cr.lp blahb blahb blah xx Sonic Boom xx FADC xx dash forward jab.

Now if he does that since its a level two and i block anything i do loses. I did BHC and it beat his jab. Explain

[Vegaman]

So does BHC have invul frames at any point during start up? My friend did this with seth

cr.lp blahb blahb blah xx Sonic Boom xx FADC xx dash forward jab.

Now if he does that since its a level two and i block anything i do loses. I did BHC and it beat his jab. Explain

no but your hitbox changes. and if you’re right up on the wall just the timing alone might be enough to beat it

[pedoviejo]

no but your hitbox changes. and if you’re right up on the wall just the timing alone might be enough to beat it

I wasnt on the wall. I did a reversal BHC towards him he was right in my face. cr.lp gets beat hk.ST gets beat. ONly moves that avoid his attack are lk.st mk.ST which i should try next time because it casues moves to whiff and SC

btw, have you guys played a real seth? One that knows how to zone, and how to apply his mix up game up close. His zonining is bad for Vega because its a mix of Dhalsim with higher mobility, and puts you in a situation like Guile’s but he can punish like Sagat ie (knockdown) . And his mix up is as scary as Abel’s, but has the confusion and ambiguity of Rufus Viper Cammy, and has frame traps that always lead to knock down, or punishment for escaping usally combined. Explain how to overcome this because I cant see how to beat this Seth.

Also Seth is always in a favorable position against Vega anywhere on screen. Except for on knock down or if im pressuring him.

[Vegaman]

I wasnt on the wall. I did a reversal BHC towards him he was right in my face. cr.lp gets beat hk.ST gets beat. ONly moves that avoid his attack are lk.st mk.ST which i should try next time because it casues moves to whiff and SC

btw, have you guys played a real seth? One that knows how to zone, and how to apply his mix up game up close. His zonining is bad for Vega because its a mix of Dhalsim with higher mobility, and puts you in a situation like Guile’s but he can punish like Sagat ie (knockdown) . And his mix up is as scary as Abel’s, but has the confusion and ambiguity of Rufus Viper Cammy, and has frame traps that always lead to knock down, or punishment for escaping usally combined. Explain how to overcome this because I cant see how to beat this Seth.

Also Seth is always in a favorable position against Vega anywhere on screen. Except for on knock down or if im pressuring him.

the only thing i can think of is that you’re beating his LP on startup.

as for seth… my method is i have 3 goals…

1st is to discourage taking to the air. i do this by sitting full screen and reacting to his wall jump with either izuna (if i see it early enough) or air throw. a couple of those and he probably wont be wall jumping anymore.

2nd is i shut down his jHP game. jHP loses to jump back fierce, nj HK, cHP (sometimes trades) and jMP. most seths are pretty stubborn and wont stop it no matter how many times you punish so i just learned to sit on that one move.

3rd is when i get BHC ready i again just sit, block and wait for sonic boom, wall jump, jHP, his U1/super or a whiffed uppercut and i nail him.

i dont get too caught up in my offense like i normally do vs blanka or sakura, but i dont have to since his life is so low. land 1 izuna loop and 1 U1 and it’s gg. it makes it a lot easier if you can establish air superiority