Not quite, you are forgetting corner knockdown. If you choose to try grabbing deep and meaty, the escape option becomes unsafe and you can punish slow teleports and you can murder Vega’s flip attempts in mirror matches. But you are right, if the opponent is standing and can use the escape option before you are on top of them they are 100% safe… so long as they don’t get easily faked and are capable of reacting with the speed of my grandma.
Wait a sec, the 2 hit only works with the EX version?
yes, you can only do the double barcelona attack from the EX version.
guys, what can you do to Akuma if you know he’s going to teleport on wakeup ? or if he starts teleport out of the corner
Wait it out and punish it’s recovery with EX FBA.
I finally uploaded all Hitbox Videos, unfortunately there are no vids for Scarlet Terror available 
[media=youtube]AAdwwiU1wTg"[/media]
[media=youtube]eWTdaPMNzBY"[/media]
[media=youtube]Btv78JakABo"[/media]
[media=youtube]CCGj79gZHwU"[/media]
[media=youtube]2TIqlpOEZgo"[/media]
[media=youtube]U1s49idugQw"[/media]
[media=youtube]m92BkL9x1Xw"[/media]
[media=youtube]e3T-AN3Eha0"[/media]
[media=youtube]bLW27pPUX6o"[/media]
[media=youtube]OX0YZM6yKlo"[/media]
[media=youtube]u9Qg9UZI-CE"[/media]
[media=youtube]OghTqtD4GtI"[/media]
[media=youtube]S9j7fVQOOsA"[/media]
[media=youtube]qfRuziV0s60"[/media]
[media=youtube]iXTZqHRZwxA"[/media]
That must have taken ages to do. Jeez, nice work Majin.
If you downloaded the same file as me, then you don’t have Scarlet Terror videos and neither do I…if not I’ll dig through mine and see if I have it.
Scarlet Terror was never in the file and that is one of the most important move especially for anti air to know the hit box.
Damn =( You’re right. just had a look through the file and nothing there. I did have an image for air throw though. It’s on my guide somewhere. Since I noticed that you didn’t have the hitbox up for it.
Its included in the throw video.
I know, I meant where you had the images linked ^^
beginner here wanting to understand frame traps and frame data. so i understand the moves with + frame adv on block are ideal to use, far lk and cr. mk etc. and then follow up with a quick startup frame move.
-
if cr. mk is a +2 block but you use it “meaty” this should give a +3 on block correct? so unless you have a 3 frame startup move how can you hit your opponent if he also inputs an attack that has the same startup as vega’s move (for example cr. mp)
-
also, if you land this cr. mk meaty and are +3 on block, the best thing vega can use is a 4 frame startup move like cr. mp. How does this not get beat by a Chun-li or Balrog 3 frame startup jab (or does it?)
-
when determining which moves are the best for frame traps, do you just look at frame adv block and frame startup? if so, why isn’t cr. mk (+2 or +3) -> far HK (startup 4) considered a frame trap when cr. mk -> cr. mp (same numbers) is
-
when you use far.lk, is the absolute best case scenario of frame adv on on block +6? (+2 assuming first active frame hits, but since it has 4 more active frames it can be +6, am i correct on this?)
-
when i watched the makoto claw player against another guy he used cr. mk -> st. lk -> CH (all the moves were blocked). How can the opponent not get a move off before the CH if CH has a 14 frame startup?
appreciate any answers
First, lemme explain what meatys are. Meatys are moves done so that the active frames of the move coincide with the “recovery” from invinciibility of your opponent (on wakeup, reset, etc). The general idea is to “skip” the startup frames and control which active frame you are hitting on. Since an opponents hitstun is the same regardless of when you hit them in a single hit move, if you land the attack on 1 of the later frames then that in turn will give you more frame advantage in the end.
(talkling about Super not AE)
For example. cMK has 3 active frames. Normally when you use it. the first active frame will be the one that hits. If your opponent blocks the move you are +2 meaning that you will finish your move and be able to do something else 2 frames before your opponent gets out of blockstun(14 frames). However, if you hit them on the last active frame instead, those 14 frames are shifted, and you pick up the 2 active frames you “skipped” at the end. That enables you to have your frame advantage at +4 instead of +2. If you hit them on the 2nd active frame you’ll be at +3 in the end.
To answer the last part of this, if you are at +3, then no you cannot link anything to it. Vega’s fastest moves are 4 frames so if you’re not at least at +4 on hit you cannot link the move.
It CAN get beat. it all depends on hitboxes. If you do a cMK then do a cMP and balrog does a jab, one of 4 things will happen:
-Your move will get stuffed by his cLP because his active hitbox hit your hittable box before your move came out and you get counterhit.
-Your move trades with the cLP because you were spaced as such so that his cLP didnt hit you on it’s first active frame. because both moves active frames hit each other’s hittable boxes both people got hit.
-Your move beats his cLP because you were out of his cLP range and your active frames ended up hitting his recovering hittable box
-You both whiff because you are both out of range. (Typically if you hit him with the cMK at max range)
this can be countered by blocking or mashing moves with i-frames that start on frame 0 or moves that hit on frame 0-1 (like gief’s U1)
It is… a frame trap is any move that puts you in a situiation where your move contacts (hit or block) in such a way that your next move beats some of their options on startup, resulting in counterhits (usually for pokes).
Take your frame advantage plus the startup of the next move and subtract the startup of the moves you anticipate your opponent to use. If you are + then it’s a frame trap (or combo or blockstring).
For a more general rule, there arent many moves that have 1-2 frame startup so anything that leaves you hitting them on their first or 2nd frame is a frame trap. It’s used as a way to “punish” button mashing. If your opponent has no 3 frame moves (like vega) you can extend it to hitting on the third frame of their possible startup.
again this can be countered by blocking.
You can be at most +7
Normally you’re at +5
If you hit on the 2nd active frame you’ll be at +6
If you score a counterhit you’ll be at +7
Counterhits give you +1 frame advantage for Light attacks and +3 frame advantage on Medium and Hard attacks.
The opponent chose not to block… sLK links to sLK and cMP. If you set it up to where your opponent thinks you will do the link instead then they will instictivly block. That enables him to set up CH frame traps/kara throw mixups.
so what is the safest way to pressure a knocked down balrog or chunli assuming your first move is a cr. mk (which gives you +4 on block if you land it “meaty”)
since you are +4 on block, can you use cr. lp or cr. mp (4 frame startups) and stuff any of their jab attempts (3 frame startups)? yes or no, what is quantitative frame data explanation for this (do the recovery frames of cr. mk come into the calculation too?)
how did you get this? if i take frame adv block plus next move’s startup and then subtract opponent’s startup jab, i would have an example that looks like this assuming a knockdown by my vega:
cr. mk (i hit on first active frame = +2 on block) + cr. mp (= 4 startup) - chun li cr. lp (= 3 startup) = +3. i am at a + but this formula rewards me for using a move with high startup frames.
for example using the same formula, i use cr. mk (+2) + far mk (8 startup) - chun li cr. lp (= 3 startup) = +7.
doesn’t it work this way instead:
situation a) i use cr. mk +2 on block, then a 4 frame startup cr. mp. chun-li 3 frame startup jab beats out cr. mp b/c i don’t have enough frame adv block to use a 4 frame startup move.
situation b) i use cr. mk “meaty” to get +4 on block, then 4 frame startup cr. mp. now no 3 frame startup move from chun li will do anything.
is the above correct or no? and if i get +3 on block then we are both at the same frame adv and it all depends on hitboxes of her cr. lp and my cr. mp?
how are you at +5? the frame data says +2 on block for far lk so wouldn’t hitting on the second frame give you +3, third frame +4, fourth frame +5, and fifth active frame +6?
what is a counterhit and how do you score one? where do you find this info on counterhits adding to your frame advantage (i don’t see it on eventhubs)?
if he did cr. mk to far lk he would be at best a +6 (or +7 based on your earlier explanation) on block after the far lk. even if he’s +7 on block how is he able to get off a 14 frame startup move in CH without it being stuffed by a 3 or 4 frame startup jab? can you calculate the frame data for this?
It depends on what your opponent’s options are. Do they have meter? Super? Ultra? Meter + ultra?
For Rog, if he has no meter, do frame traps. pick a 5 or 6 frame startup move that will reach. If he has meter, pick a 4 frame move that will not get you killed during it’s recovery if blocked.
For chun. the same applies if she has no meter. If she has meter, pick a 4 frame startup move that is safe on block or if you expect EX SBK do something that beats it (jHP spaced/timed right will beat it). If she has super, do NOT do anything that leaves you at -1 or greater (block or hit). Her reversal Super is the fastest move in the game and hits in 1 frame.
Keep in mind this is not something you should make a habit of. Vega doesnt have oh so great pressure options, so the basic idea is to poke poke poke. He doesnt have any realiable blockstrings to keep opponents guessing, he doesnt have many OS’s that shut down options, he doesnt have moves that have high “priority.” So if an opponent blocks a move generally you want to “end” pressure there with the occasional mixup with kara throw to keep them honest.
Everyone has different styles tho. My style is extremely conservative and the idea is to never do something unsafe at all (or at least try to never to that) I block a lot. I’m not afraid of pressure, because i know how to block and i’m confident in that ability.
assuming you are at point blank range if you do cMK and you are at +4 on block and you do a 4 frame startup move, it will not beat their jab because they will be in constant blockstun. They do not have an opportunity to press a button. That’s why you need frame traps. so you can hit them in their possible first or 2nd frame. the thing is, that frame traps that hit on the first frame of a possible move only give the opponent 1 frame to press a button, ones that hit on the 2nd frame give the opponent 2 possible frames to press a button. so it’s a balancing act between having frame traps with a gap large enough to press a button but not so large that you get beat. Those frame traps will obviously have to be adjusted from opponent to opponent depending on how good their reactions are.
The recovery frames of cMK are what determines what frame advantage you are at. you are at +2, +4 , etc because of the recovery frames, so there is no need to recalculate anything unless you hit on anything other than the first frame. and even then you just need to “shift” the hit/block stun frames of your opponent to compensate for the “skipped” active frames.
i actually had the formula a lil backwards. It’s your current frame advantage (+2) - the startup of next move (-4) + the startup of your opponents anticipated move (+3), which give you +1. no you will hit chun out of her jab 1 frame before her active frames kick in, and score a counterhit giving you +4 to +5 frame advantage on the cMP IF she presses a button in the 2 avalible frames of the frame trap. My bad, it was goin on 2 hours sleep
If you end up at 0 in the formula you trade. if you end up on the - side you lose. that’s how it works. as long as you are in the +'s you will win (excluding moves with i frames on startup)
you gotta remember that your cMK is starting 2 frames before chun can do anything at all… that 2 frame head start enables you to hit her 1 frame before her jab can come out. Even with her 3 frame jab she is at best 5 frames behind you.
in situiation b chun doesnt even have time to press a button because before she comes out of block stun your next move is hitting her., therefore you will probably end up having your move blocked instead of getting a hit.
yeah i was tired… lol i was looking at hit not block.
but no.
sLK is +2 on block. It has 2 ACTIVE frames and 5 STARTUP frames that means that at most you can be at +3 on block.
Frame 1 -Startup frame
Frame 2 -Startup frame
Frame 3 -Startup frame
Frame 4 -Startup frame
Frame 5 -First Active frame (the first frame that can hit. this frame is also counted “twice” in the frame data. It’s frame 5 of the startup and also frame 1 of the active frames.They do this for simplicity so that you can look at startup and instantly know what frame it hits on instead of having to add. So if you add startup + active + recovery frames you’ll have 1 more frame than the actual total number of frames the move has)
Frame 6 -Last active frame (the last frame that can hit and if you time or position the move to hit on this frame you can add the “missing” frame 5 to your opponents blockstun at the end)
Frame 7-13 -Recovery frames
Frame 14- First frame you are able to initiate another move (+1 on block for you)
Frame 15 -Opponent cannot do anything, stuck in block stun (+2 on block for you)
Frame 16 -First frame your opponent can press a button and if so first startup frame of opponent’s cLP
Frame 17 -2nd Startup frame of cLP (this is where your cMP will hit if you are at +2 on block and you initiate the cMP on frame 14)
Frame 18 -First active frame that can hit you. (if you started up cMP on frame 15 you will trade here more than likely)
a counterhit is when you hit an opponent on it’s startup frames (i do not know for sure if it’s only the first few frames of the startup, the last few frames before the active frames occur or if it’s all startup frames so i’d have to look it up myself which i’ll do when i get down to LA this afternoon). when you score a counter hit it’ll briefly appear on the screen and as a reward you are given additional frame advantage, damage, and stun added onto your move. Light attacks will get +1 MORE frame advantage on top of what you would have already had. Medium and Hard attacks will net you +3 frame advantage MORE than what you would have gotten.
I’m sure it’s somewhere in srk and eventhubs but it’s probaby easier to just google “What are the properties of counterhits in SF4.”
as for makoto, it’s not that he comboed or blockstringed into CH. it was an unsafe move. he could have very well gotten hit. however he probably conditioned his opponent to block (got his opponent used to blcoking in certain situiations). if he did not condition his opponent either he calculated the risk of getting hit was worth the possible reward of having CH blocked, or he simply made a guess and guessed correctly. in any event his opponent chose to block instead of pressing buttons. it’s not that the opponent couldnt press buttons and was forced to block.
what is it that makes ex sbk different? on eventhubs it says 6 startup frames and nothing about invincibility, so what is the frame data explanation for having to be cautious of her ex sbk if he has meter?
i was told by another poster that the best way to counter these rapid mashed jabs by chun li and balrog is to wait until i am pushed back far enough and use cr. lp or cr. mp. though most of the time i can’t get this off, i assume this is b/c chun li is +3 on block with cr. lp. (or b/c i’m not being pushed back far enough).
so do you suggest the only way to get around this is to keep blocking the jabs and tech the throw at the last possible second? is that the only way?
oh ok, so just to make sure i understand… to use the frame trap i should input the cr. mk later so that it hits right away (first frame) as they’re getting up so i’m at a +2 which gives them the opportunity to attempt a move that i can stuff with cr. mp. correct?
so basically it is just another word for achieving the purpose of a frame trap?
use srk wiki…
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/Chun-Li
frames 1-7 are i frames, meaning she has no hittable box at all. that means that you cannot attack her in those first 7 frames.
i personally never use that. if i see someone mashing i do one of 4 things. I run away, i frame trap as i stated above, or i simple block. The last option is to throw. Throws have a 3 frame startup. That means that throws beat any move in range that does not have unthrowable frames that are 3 frame startups or more.
i mean, why does there HAVE to be a counter to everything? what’s wrong with blocking the mashed jabs? They dont chip. the worst you can eat is a throw, as opposed to pressing a button and risking eating a combo, or worse a combo into ultra or super. i mean… is there something wrong with blocking?
well yeah that’s an option but why waste all those + frames. why not do a move with more startup and damage? if you’re at +4 do a move that has a 5, 6, or even 7 frame startup to frame trap instead of trying to go for small damage.
um… not sure i follow, but look at it like this. You dont have to frame trap to get a counterhit. but if you do a frame trap it’s only purpose is to land a counterhit. I mean you can argue that some people frame trap to get an opponent to stop mashing and to block more or to set up kara throws, but that’s only done because of the fear of or directly because of counterhits
I guess the safe jump thread is gone, but here is what I found out against Yun
BTW I tested back throw safe jump against Yun’s up-kicks.
j.MP got stuffed with mashing EX Upkicks with reversal timing. Same things happen with j.MK
LK version will miss
MK will get stuffed
HK will miss
Empty jump is the only thing that’ll beat ex.Up Kicks, Vega ends up blocking it.
yeah i’ve noticed i get hit when trying to safe jump… damn twins
are there no scarlet terror hitboxes anywhere?