His Ken really does seem a notch better in terms of footsies and patience.
I just had a funny thought,
If capcom saw all this and decided to nerf the other shotos to be comparatively the same as oni strength wise it would solve everything, as messed up as that would be.
The oni players would be happy their heroes would go back to oni as nothing else would be a better alternative shoto wise.
The evil ryu bandwaggoners would quickly drop off and evil ryu would be back to where he was pre ultra, no more complaining about evil ryu.
Daigod and all the other ryu players would go back to ryu.
Japan would still think yuns the greatest.
I’d prefer more buffs. I didn’t agree with most of Akuma or Akuma with flameable hair gel’s nerfs once DWU was announced. I don’t think Akuma is bad off but I think like his more blue cousin, there is little reason to play him over Evil Ryu or Ken. If you got trouble with Evil Ryu’s slow crMK play Ken, if you got trouble with Ken’s average at best damage play Evil Ryu.
Otherwise the remaining shotos there isn’t much reason to pick. They might not be significantly worse off than those 2 but their overall similarities and gameplans, especially due to the system mechanics, are such that NOT picking them seems like you’re just hamstringing yourself.
Ryu especially. outside of DWU he is most certainly better in USF4 than AE2012, but the amount he is better and the options he gained are inconsequential and leave him still worse than ERyu or Ken IMO
The problem isn’t so much that they gave him the fadc cancel, it’s how much value they placed on it without taking into consideration the overall nerf to FADC cancels on srks and Oni’s horrendous backdash. It literally did nothing for him, but yet it feels like due to it they chose to curb every other possible change in fear that 'oh no maybe we’ll make him too strong now!" and instead gave him extremely minor borderline moot changes otherwise. It just adds insult to injury for avid Oni players who were hoping to see some actually useful changes. Oh well whatcha gunna do - I guess you can’t expect them to take every character they make changes to into the lab to fully test it out.
Also to those people talking about Sanford and shit, are you kidding me? You could give Sanford or Wao any character who isn’t bottom tier and they’ll make lemonade …because they’re good. It might be faster with higher tier more well rounded characters but at the end of the day they’ve got the skill set it takes to make the most out of even a bad situation, that doesn’t mean Oni couldn’t use a few buffs here and there and I’m pretty sure the comments made about the character by both players kind of prove that point.
The problem for him was Oni lost individuality as a character and just was like the other shotos now, hes a big fan of characters having unique properties that only a specific character has.
Big secret, its not hair gel.
Im curious how would you buff oni to be up to par with the rest? akuma too. I have a big write up on capcom unity boards where im stuffing a lot of oni balance suggestions in+explainations. If you dont want to repeat yourself I can just copy and paste what you wrote a couple of responses earlier those were pretty neat aside from the crouch mk recovery part, its fine the way it is imo it gets him under cross up tatsu, burn kicks, condor spire and tiger knees. I mean if it recovered quicker great I can punish easier and harder off of the low profile but its not super needed.
Maybe I’m reading it wrong (I am tired) but even if you exclude DWU, how is Ryu better from 2012 to Ultra? It doesn’t seem like any of his buffs™ make up for what he lost with the universal DP nerf.
I use both characters. They are not the same at all.
I really don’t want to discuss Oni anymore TBQH. But whatever I’ll do a similar post to what I did with Rolento earlier
Forward walk speed: 0.04 -> 0.0425
Backdash 8F grounded reduced to 6F grounded. Total frame count reduced by 1F (now 26F)
F+MK hitbox moved down slightly, hurtbox reduced in width and height slightly. (Doesn’t need major change just slightly better all around.)
F+MK active frames increased from 2F to 3F recovery reduced from 13F to 12F (no change to total frame count). Can be special canceled 1-5F of startup allowing karas. (If compensation needed, reduce damage to 60 or make it 13F startup again.)
F+HK made 8F startup 3F active
crMK active frames increased by 1F, recovery reduced by 2F (now 6/3/14)
crHP - damage after first 3F increased to 110 (something I want for all anti air normals is more damage as an AA)
Normal Fireball +2F blockstun, no change to frame data just increases block advantage. (Makes it safer for block strings at only -6F at worst but easily spaceable with some normals to be -2F or better. Also makes fireball FADC have more block advantage.)
Charged fireball - Damage increased from 40x2 to 55x2. Stun increased from 50x2 to 75x2 (It may be the most viable chargable fireball (Gouken possibly tied but you never see it fully charge in neutral like you do with Oni) but I see no reason for it to get so little damage/stun. I’d like to see all chargeable moves buffed because most of them aren’t viable due to time it takes, and some gain very little bonuses for charging.)
LP Elec fireball startup reduced to 25F
On hit you can FADC 2nd hit of DP just like AE2012. Only first hit FADCable on block.
U2 animation sped up and full animation damage reduced to 505 (Non-cinematic version unadjusted. I just think it’s silly that the cinematic U2 does more than Gief’s U1.)
Ryu doesn’t use DP FADC on block nearly as heavily as Ken on offense. However the crMK - fireball and EX Fireball adjustments strengthed Ryu’s ground game in quite a number of matchups. crMK - Fireball being a true block string from farther out means I can’t sneak in an EX Pinwheel as Juri, Zonk as Cody, or EX GH as Gief, or Focus as Fei, ect ect anymore. crMK - EX is almost always a true blockstring now AFAIK, even at near max range.
I dunno, I guess it’s based on what you weigh as important: Being able to stand your ground more and avoid being knocked down in the first place or being able to escape a knockdown situation for 1 less bar should you fall.
Remember, DP FADC ONLY effects regular DPs. Ryu can still EX DP FADC as long as he has 1 more bar. It’s a higher cost but he didn’t entirely lose the option. Plus he is likely gaining more meter now that he can throw out fireballs a bit more often.
I don’t think Ryu is notably better but I think he is slightly better until you put DWU into the equation where he then becomes noticeably worse since typically that is where he got his big damage in matchups where he couldn’t exclusively zone to win.
I agree with Eternal in the regards that the shotos aren’t necessarily bad, but that there really isn’t much reason (outside of already putting a lot of time and effort into one) to not choose E.Ryu or Ken in this edition.
Especially Ryu. Playing Ryu is almost pitiful in this edition because you hardly get any mileage by out-footsing your opponent outside the corner scenerio. Fireballs in general hardly do any chip or pack a bunch - Throwing a bad one opens you up to a 300+ damage combo as we all know.
IMO All I want is for Capcom to change crouching forward -> fireball into a true blockstring for some other shoto characters.
Take Akuma for instance - He has this pesky range where the crouching forward doesn’t link into fireball. Because I’ve misread this range by a few pixels, I lose 2 bars because I want to FADC into Stand Roundhouse or Far standing fierce for extra damage, knockdown & to push my opponent closer to the corner.
If Akuma had this too, then he could play footsies a lot more reliably especially since he’s lost the ability to U1 from his sweep.
Right now, he just has pitiful health and you’re literally forced to play a super defensive, run-away game with a few ‘gimmicks’ using his tool set and ‘fake vortex setups’. I think he’s still strong - Just outclassed by Ken and Evil Ryu like you mentioned.
I’m not disagreeing with you here but in USF4:
Ken’s reward for comboing into his Ultra is more damage (10 more damage added to his HP Shoryuken, 30 more damage added to his Shinryuken non-animation) Ken’s HP Shoryuken is still the same amount of frames negative when all three hits are blocked (-30).
Ryu on the otherhand got the finger and the LP DP he uses to combo into Ultra got nerfed on forward dash, backdash and block because it’s only one hit. Ryu is now more susceptible to getting frame trapped because his threatening escape had it’s risk increased with no change to the reward… and to make matters worse with negative edge you will get a red focus when canceling Ryu’s LP DP so if you get a bit nervous and have an execution error it could cost you a bar for something that did not exist in AE2012.
I didn’t realize Poison was that strong? What makes her a top 10 character?
she has real zoning and can win a shoot out with most other zoners. decent frame traps. decent damage output. comboable high low game. resets. she has ok footsie buttons and her aa game isnt amazing, but they both are supplemented pretty well by her close fireballs
shes solid. i dunno about top 10, but she’s upper half at least
If there is one thing for sure, I don’t think Capcom ever intends on giving something like that to Ken. It would give him a reason to pressure with cr.MK xx Fireball without the worry of getting beaten through the string of attacks. The only reason I could think of why they increased the damage on them to 70 is for the purpose of combos.
Most Ryu players want a true blockstring from cr.MK to Fireball at every range… but how many of them would be willing to give up cr.MK’s recovery to get something like that? His cr.MK has 12f of recovery it has a great amount of active frames, the only way they could really balance this, is by changing his fireball start up (not going to happen) or nerfing the recovery on cr.MK (Capcom loves to nerf) to add more blockstun. Would Ryu players be ok with it being 5/5/13, 5/5/14, 5/5/15 etc?
why not make hp fireball travel faster?
no one is saying he’s a bad character, me and loyal are just telling you and that other guy that Chun beats him pretty badly. And this is pretty much a fact, play against a GOOD chun li and tell me what the fuck you’re gonna do to kill her. Out footsie her without using sweep? Zone her with air hados giving her free ultra meter and putting yourself in the corner? Not to mention she now has a pretty easy time trading with your jump back hado. And once you know her down, which is a suicide once she got ultra btw, good luck guessing if she’s gonna dwu or not. Did I mention that her footsies were already miles better than akuma’s even when akuma could basically “spam” sweep all day because chun’s U1 couldn’t punish him? How are you gonna challenge her godlike normals? With akuma’s shitty c.mk which never combos into hado unless you’re really close? Or with fs.hp which gets out ranged/stuffed by like, all her normals?
Seriously, it’s for sure 6.5/4.5 in chun’s favour, might be borderline 7-3
At this point, I’m not for increasing the recovery frames of crouching forward for some of the current weaker shotos (Ryu, Akuma, etc) when they already have difficulty in certain matchups unlike E.Ryu and Ken. You don’t need to implement a nerf to offset a buff in the first place if the character isn’t incredibly powerful in the first place.
On another note - Would it be possible to change crouching forward xx fireball to be a combo at all ranges (assuming that it hits the opponent) but not necessarily a true block-string at further ranges if the opponent is in fact, blocking? I’d be going for this suggestion if it’s possible to implement this kind of change. It would really help with the stupid occasional whiffs you get because you’re few pixels off the requirement for it to combo.
Mechanics wise the only way to make it a true block string at further ranges esp in Ken’s case with his 14F startup fireball is to either increase blockstun on crMK or reduce startup on fireball or make HP Fireball travel faster AND one of the other two options in addition. That is simply how you have to do it. There isn’t another option that is how the game works.
Right now, Akuma/Ken’s crMK - fireball is never a true block string, and it can’t combo from nearly as far as Ryu/Evil Ryu because of the 14F startup vs Ryu / Evil Ryu’s.
The only reason Evil Ryu’s crMK - Fireball is almost always a true blockstring is because they increased the blockstun 2F over Ken, his fireball startup is 1F faster than Ken AND most importantly, when Evil Ryu cancels his crMK into a special it moves him forward while all other shotos stay in the same spot, this means that the fireball is executed closer for Evil Ryu’s crMK - Fireball meaning it hits sooner.
For Ken / Akuma to have crMK - Fireball be a true block string even just from about the distance they can combo into their HP Fireball their crMKs would need at LEAST +3F more blockstun. This means their crMKs become -1F on block. At that only makes it a true block string from specific distances, and only with HP Fireball. A max range crMK - Fireball is active for 9F before it hits by my count. That would require crMK to be +5F on block to be a true blockstring.
Ill post these in the unity thread. If any of these get through to the actual game ill call you godlike. I think a lot of the oni players would agree to these changes, we dont want “safer” bad options that are still unsafe(hk slash and stomps) we just want a more solid neutral game so you dont have to gamble every time.
Your AA damage increase is something Ive been screaming for for the longest time, not in forums but in regular discussion. I think its retarded that i can anti air you perfectly 3 times and I mess up the fourth and you get back all that damage and then some. I think if chars could regularly anti air into ultra it would really discourage the online jump fest we see today…hopefully…maybe.