Good posts on Oni, Eternal. Just wanted to let let you know that gamerbee actually considers oni vs adon to be in oni’s favor.
Brb going on forums for games I no longer play and talk about tier lists.
I played Sagat up until Ultra, but dropped him cause of nerfs. I only used him for Guile, and he got nerfed, Bison got buffed and I don’t even struggle anymore. His zoning game is good, his damage isn’t great it’s okay and the only people I dominated was scrubs. You have to fight for spacing, especially against characters like Fei and Dudley… but shoutouts to Smug bandwagoners. Sagat st.mk too stronk for Dudley’s duck.
No disrespect but I dont think with the way oni is designed currently he will ever be a solid character. A solid character in my eyes can put damage on the board safely, either through repeated safe mixups or space control and chip. Fei, bison, rose, and adon are solid characters and exemplify the latter, ibuki, cviper and cammy are examples of the former. Chars like guy and fuerte and oni will never be solid imo.
Onis normals+ walk speed+focus and dashes are balanced around the fact that he has unsafe stomps and slashes and air dashes(all of these dont lead into any further mixups) to play around with plus big damage. The way he is played by OMH and wao(most of the time wao plays correct sometimes he acts the fool and stomp stomps and cross up slash to troll) is super neutral game and counter poke/block and punish focused. I say keep with the trend, either make his stomps and slashes really bad and buff his neutral game and tone his damage down to compensate, or if he stays the way he is make it so his stomps and slashes justify the risk to reward your taking.
3 frame Dp, shoto normals (including two really good mp), kara throw , overhead, 50/50 applications , hit confirm 3 frame short (EDIT: I mean the jab), AMAZING screen control carry with forward throw into slash. Far zoning normals and close normals that can frame trap. FADC damage potential and resets into stun.
Sure sounds like he’s lacking some shit. Maybe a gun with a couple of bullets might help. We can’t clearly can’t agree that the character , however the style you want to lay on him, doesn’t have good solid (if even great) tools.
Also fun facts! - The dudes that won the other nights team tourney in my City …guess which character one of them used.
Aiet well disagree. When Oni places top 8 in a major again ill come back and eat crow. And if the dudes your guy was beating were getting hit by stomps on wake, stomps off reset or slash, getting frame trapped while oni has 2 bar with back mp or crouch hp or eating cross up slashes then Ill legit say that those guys he beat werent familiar with the matchup. If not then good, solid real play is finally being used by Oni players instead of scrubby bullshit that doesn’t work on anyone good. That would make me happy actually.
I’m not seeing how Oni isn’t at least solid. I’m not going to get into the arguments, but I think it’s pretty damn clear that he is at least still decent.
Also, this:
Has never been a good argument when discussing how good a character is, unless they are clearly better than the majority of the cast ('nilla Sagat, AE trio, 2012 Cammy/Fei).
Dont get me wrong, oni CAN fight anyone he was designed like that.
-He can zone a little(3 frame dp big hitbox but can be baited easy cuz no range, fireballs are ok/bad, far reaching normals but easily focused, and good anti air normals) but not with the best of them,
-he can rush down a little because his short duration dash allows him to focus in on improperly spaced things (relying on opponent to space things wrong)
-he can space people out with his normals and fireballs a little (cant control space with focus like chars that have quick long range focus, he cant control range by using walk speed and back dashes to jut in and out of ranges.
-he can pressure ok if he gets on the inside but has a hard time openning people up who have good frame trap defense/know how to adjust tech timings (no command grab, no dive kick to left right mix up, no comboable overhead, no way to repeatedly chip safely -8 on block fireball -2 left at point blank after slash, try giving bisons -2 and point blank spacing after a blocked lk scissor kick and see how long they can maintain scissor kick pressure, even dudley is left -2 outside of throw range after machine gun blow) add to that there is no real consequence to getting thrown by oni and that further weakens his frame trap game. like given the worst case scenario if you have 950 stun and I land a jump hk into target combo into tatsu for some reason at the beginning of the round, i would have to throw you 3 more times to stun you. your telling me you wouldnt be able to find a gap in the 3 following block strings to get out and not get stunned, most of the time oni wont go for the throw anyway and push himself out on his own because lol muh frame traps.
–tripple edit to put into perspective. You really have to recognize match situations and risk vs reward. Look at daigo at the hong kong tournament where he placed first. In grand finals he faced a sick ass hugo player with his evil ryu. Based on daigos mentality of taking the lesser of 2 evilssee his strategy to walk into xians hand fadc combos to burn xians meter so super into ultra was a non issue daigo ate every single one of hugos light kick into ex running wall carry tick throws. Why you ask? because the alternative is to try something and eat the clap clap clap lk into clothesline combo and lose half your health. Even if it meant getting carried to the corner and having to deal with hugos amazing corner pressure, he still took the throw. If hugo positioned himself too close daigo air tatsued out which hugo could not punish. If hugo laid back in order to catch the tatsu daigo would have the space to stick out his own slow evil ryu normals. The same story with oni, why would you press buttons against an oni with 2 bar loaded when the only way to force stand and do big damage is with 2 bars and the first 2 hits of a block string cancelled into mk tatsu or if he comboed into crouch hp off the first normal. If you eat the throw then so what, oni doesn’t have the corner pressure game to do anything to you any other shoto wouldnt be able to in the corner.
but in the same token he loses to people who specialize in one area, he can be spaced out, he can be out zoned, he can be rushed down. I think the only people he legit beats are grapplers and even then thats iffy given how much buffs grapplers got in ultra.
Im aware that a character can be secret top tier, look at xian and what he did to gen. I just want to see it with my own eyes that its possible, like show me there is someone out there that can have that 1 day where everything he touches turns to gold, every guess/read is the right one. Someone show me that a maxed out oni can take top 8 at a major and overcome all his bad matchups with straight up skill.
-edit, even using the xian gen comparison look at what happened to him and daigo, daigo went and learned the match up, learned how to block all of xians shenanigans and wrecked him the next first to ten they played. when xian played sako who also plays gen high level, xian got wrecked because the tech that got him the evo title got figured out.
and look at wao, he won the topanga tournament with oni and what happened? the other japanese players went in hard on the matchup, even picking up oni to see what is real and what isnt after that I dont think wao beat daigo the next set they played, or tokido, or bonchan, fuudo or mago too i dont think.
I don´t know, if this was mentioned here, but keep in mind that Evil Ryu had 900 health in AE2012, while Oni had 1000 health. In USF4 both have now the same amount of health(950). The extra health and not having to deal with DWU, while keeping the high dmg output were maybe good reasons to prefer Oni over Evil Ryu, but now not anymore, since the current metagame rather benefits Evil Ryu´s strengths than Oni´s.
I can´t see many reasons, why I should pick Oni instead of Evil Ryu.
Will Smith called it. Major results don’t count towards character strength.
Also on the tourney thing , the guy didn’t use stomp or slashes as gimmics, he plays all the shoto characters and mains Akuma. He just played Oni like a basic shoto but with access to larger damage. That’s pretty much the way I’ve seen him being played solid, hence my opinion that on a basic level, Oni’s fundamentals and game plan is effective. The fact that he does have gimmics supplements him IMO.
I don’t know how you think it’s pretty damn clear he is ‘at least’ decent. Arguably the most successful/best Oni player in the world (Wao) labelled him as “just ok” in Ultra. Sanford has commented that “Oni gets mauled by people who are safe and smart about their rushdown and he gets lamed out(zoned) by patient players with good footsies.” and finally Daigo, Bonchan, Momochi, Tokido, Kazunoko, and Itabashi Zangief all placed him next to bottom tier.
I mean if you want to disagree with 8 of the greatest SF4 players that’s your prerogative but I’m going to be inclined to agree with Sanford in saying that: " I can beat some of the best with him but those weaknesses are very bad once exploited… " and that is not the sign of a ‘solid’ character. Oni is average at best in the hands of the best, but when put in the hands of the average joe he is most definitely accurately described as ‘meh’, not ‘at least decent’. I am by no means calling Oni a BAD character because what he does well at he excels (A tier damage output and a decent wake up game) but that doesn’t make up for his punishability, poor midgame, slow pokes, poor mobility, and fireballs that have the recovery of a whiffed ultra. Everything Oni does E.Ryu does better, faster, more efficiently and safer.
Oni is not top 3 damage even if looking at ‘practical combos’. Evil Ryu, Dudley and Sakura do much more than him, although Sakura’s damage is mainly from tatsu looping if I remember right so yes maybe he gets better hit confirm damage than her. When we’re looking at punish combos Oni is nowhere near as strong as Dudley, Sakura, Evil Ryu or Hugo. Cody is an honourable mention too.
Dudley does over 400 meterless (408 / 422 char dependant) with jump-in or a bit less after lvl3 fa. Oni doesn’t even come close to that, and Dudley’s EX meter use makes his damage increase exponentially.
Oni has pretty good damage but let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
It’s amazing Dudley didn’t get any damage nerfs considering how much better his hit confirms are than any other character.
He can combo into EX MGB from almost any hit and you will take 300 damage minimum, over 500 if 4 bars and close to 600 with stocked ultra.
I believe he can stun a few characters in one combo too without heavily scaled damage, if he lands a focus attack or jump-in > f.mk > st.mp > st.mp > st.hk > ex mgb > ducking straight > ex straight > ex straight > ex upper that does something like 1000 stun.
Top 8 has nothing to do with it. If that’s the case:
USF4 Tier List:
- Fei Long
- Cammy
- Sometimes Akuma
- Sagat
- Rufus
- Guile
- Ryu, Hakan, Chun Li, Yun, other characters people use to counter pick often
Everyone else is not viable so it doesn’t matter.
Highland better suck it up scrub, Sagat is #4 in my tier list. He’s even better than Yun.
Like I said, I’m not going to get into this argument. It is clear Oni mains will stick to their opinions about him being “bad” (notice the quotes), and there’s nothing I can do to change that.
But before I go, if you didn’t know, where I’m from “ok” and decent can be used interchangeably.
Also, E. Ryu being better has nothing to do with what I said, or Oni at all for that matter. I can just as easily say that Yun is better than E. Ryu, so there’s no reason to play him.
Remember when Akuma, Cammy, Fei, Adon, Ibuki, Makoto and Seth were bad characters? Never mind, they still are.
People always downplay their characters, and the actual mediocre ones get all the complaints.
No you get shit like “god im so sick of deejay players complaining about their char, just use a better one”
Funny how that works…
I say that. I legit think Dee Jay is a trash character out of all 44 characters, but I’m also legit tired of their complaining. Most of them say he’s been crap since Super. So why are you playing a crap character for 4 years, and complaining for 4 years? Better not even mention Dee Jay to them, whether you agree/disagree with them, they start raging on like an autistic child.
Maybe because he’s the style that is most appealing? (A guile with a couple more offensive options)
Every goddamn char specialist complains about their mains but the ones that have an actual foundation for their complaints are worse because their char is worse?
How fair is that?
edit maybe i should stop, lest the “raging autism” kick in…
/rolleyes
Well that escalated quickly…
I was gonna chime in and tell everyone to lay off you will, as youve been relatively neutral and well mannered plus i like your movies.
the way I see it, everyones definition of bad is different. maybe bad is like dan and deejay tier and ok is just everyone else not top tier. as opposed to some other peoples bad meaning never gonna be top tier or whatever.