Uncrouchable Super

Just tossing this out there, remember that the kick button you use will have different properties, so if you are expecting a wake up DP from a Ryu or Ken use LK since it’s hit immune. Or when expecting a throw on wake up use MK, but I’ve used his FK to beat wake up fireballs a lot too.

I’ve never really tried it as an alternative to their wake up, I always toss it out as an AA or or anti fireball

Oh snap. Good eye man! :clapdos:

I used to main Gouken, and his instant air-tatsu is where I noticed that holding down-back gives you special abilities. He’s got a jumping overhead special that relies on this whole forced-standing animation thing. It’s there where I noticed that holding down-back made you smaller sooner… The thing is though, his air-tatsu has 5 frames of yellow barred startup too!

Gouken cannot normally hit a down-back opponent with instant air tatsu, he HAS to use the forced-standing thing to do it. With all those yellow bars during his startup, surely it would cause the same defensive crouch, right? But it hits all the same, so they still must be taller than standard defensive crouch on wakeup, even if they hold down-back. They still must endure *some *degree of the forced-standing thing (wtf is it called? fuzzy block?), which should mean they just can’t get to full crouch block by simply holding down-back.

But let’s not forget the 2-frame no-throw window on the opponent’s getup that we all have to suffer as well. Gouken’s air-tatsu is active for two frames… Perhaps the opponent is forced-standing for one or two frames (where Gouken can hit but Hakan can’t), and then they finally crouch, and now Hakan can’t grab them?

Maybe it’s that dirty no-throw window screwing us out of meaty super? :mad:

Hey, at least this is good news for oil-dive, and you’ve discovered a property of the move that I don’t think any of us have ever realized.

I always wondered why I found meaty oil-dive waaayyy easier than meaty instant air-tatsu. I thought it was the 4-frame grab window on the dive, but it might have something to do with the lack of those yellow bars too.

I mentioned special abilities with down-back earlier, and I do think there may be something up with down-back on wakeup. While testing some Hakan crossups, I noticed there were some where I could c.jab to escape *only *when holding down-back. Any other down didn’t work, just down-back. This makes me think that holding down-back let’s you do a crouching normal attack earlier on getup? But that doesn’t make any sense? I don’t know, I didn’t get heavily into it, but there may be something there…

So I don’t play Hakan, but can’t you just stay outside the forced-block range on the opp’s wakeup?

The forced block range on the super is immense, you’ll never reach them in time. Also, this is ultimately about timing the super so that it is uncrouchable (see his regular DDT setups).

Lone Dragon, I tried this in training mode and had the exact same problem… This was a long while ago but I remember clearly having the same issue were holding down-back would allow them to enter crouching state sooner thus avoiding the super.

Maybe you’re right. Maybe when going from standing to crouching guard, the hit box is a little larger on the first frame. I know in Virtua Fighter, it takes a few frames after you begin crouching for you to actually BE crouching. And, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen people block high attacks low in SF, right at the transition between standing and crouching (I vaguely remember seeing an Abel video where the opponent blocked his close HK low by crouching right when it made contact.)

Then again, I can also remember crouch blocking a Ryu hurricane kick immediately after I recovered from a reset, and having it force me to stand block. That kinda goes against the idea of being able to crouch block immediately…but, then again, Hurricane Kick might be a “force stand” move, like many moves in this game are.

Who knows?

I don’t know for sure, but I think air-to-ground grabs like Hakan’s and Cammy’s seem to be exempt from the no-throw window on wakeup. Otherwise, Oil Dive set-ups wouldn’t work at all. There’s some weird property going on there…

I wonder if it’s possible to maybe cross the opponent up on wakeup with super, so that down back isn’t down-back any more?

I mean, there is a very, VERY small range where Hakan’s position box overlaps with the Super’s grab box:


In theory, that means that if you position Hakan 1 pixel behind the opponent on wake up (or after a reset), you could cross them up and still be close enough to grab them.

Of course, this is theory-land, and I’m sure the hit boxes will not behave nicely enough to make this happen…but, it’s a thought…

I can look into the “crossup” if you want.

But how could it be a force-stand move before it hits? I’m probably not understanding what you mean here…

I can’t say for certain how the mechanics work, but Hakan’s regular oil-dive would still work even if wasn’t exempt from the no throw window. It’s active for 4 frames, and the window is 2. …And as you pointed out, there are no yellow bars so they are forced-standing longer (way longer than the no-throw window).

Cammy’s holligan roll doesn’t have yellow bars either, and the grab is instant.

You can try, but it doesn’t seem to work too well, because the opponent’s wake up animation “push box” keeps preventing Hakan from being directly over them when they rise. Maybe it could work on small characters with low get up animations…but, even on Chun li post Slide+Press I can’t get it to work out. If you back dash after Slide+Press, it puts Hakan at the right would-be distance, but either he doesn’t cross up (too late) or he crosses up and whiffs (too early).

I mean, on the first frame when I recovered from a reset, his hurricane kick connected and made me block. But, it didn’t let me crouch block. I had to block high, even though I could have sworn I was holding down-back.

Gotta test that out, and see if I can reproduce that scenario…

^ That’s because there’s an automatic force-stand after air reset.