Utterly dominates.
Ohh believe me he’ll “utterly dominate” people left and right with Ryu too if he wants to.
unblockables may be part of vortexes or, in general, hard kd mix ups, but must be adressed seperately. removing hard knockdowns weakens all characters even the weakest. e.g. even gouken has reliable 3fr (faux) and 4fr safe jumps on hard kd to keep momentum and transition in further mix ups. removing hard kd would make the gap between low amd high tier even bigger.
Each SF is very different from the other, SF4’s system works very well, you don’t have to allow walk up grabs from half screen to make throws scary, they’re very good as is even Without the vortex, the safejump pressure alone is a great reward.
SF4 was a huge success, let’s see what this whole “let’s fix what’s not broken” approach lead to, I sure hope it won’t ruin a game that has many fans around the world that appreciate it as is.
oh I guess I should be 100% accurate - walk up throw kinda sucks in CVS2 also. it’s not as bad as SF4 but it’s not good either. CVS2 has another mechanic for forcing footsies - you can only block for so long before your guard breaks and they get a free punish on you.
I doubt people would want that in SF4 so I don’t bring it up. but it is definitely another solution to the problem. if there is no threat to force defensive pokes, the best strategy usually involves turtling your ass off and punishing offense, or finding airtight and safe offense to slowly grind people down. to me neither of those sound great.
"But you dind’t explain why. Please explain why it would be retarded when it would remove a lot of unblockable crap.
Besides you are confusing footsies with spacing. Itazan is a master of turtling and spacing, and no spamming sMP in the same position for 20 seconds is not playing footsies."
and you’re confusing yourself with a competent player who knows how to play this game. why I need to explain something like footsies and zoning to someone who complains about fireballs being op is a waste of time. if you think all itabashi does is spam st.mp , then you clearly don’t get it.
as for hard knockdowns only being relegated to supers and ultras, certain special, ex and even normals would be unsafe if they didn’t cause hard knockdown. they’d also have to rework how the cast Interacts with eachother and how they get in for offense, causing even more havok. and why? just because you don’t want to be put in a situation where you’ve got to react, think, do more than hold back to block, spend meter, or at the very worst, guess? that’s the whole point of going for a sweep or set-up. you sacrifice guaranteed damage for the potential for more damage. notice “potential” damage.
oh, and pro tip…stop mindlessly absorbing fireballs then acting surprised when your opponent shoots an ex your way. its only common sense.
I don’t remember the last time (if ever) Infiltration has won a tournament only using Ryu. Sure he’ll still be a great player, but I can’t see him winning a major with him.
oh I don’t have a problem with the reward of throws (though it’ll probably be less once vortex is nerfed), I just don’t think throws are that great. very easy to tech, even without crouch tech. and very easy to beat walk up throw with pokes because walk up throw is pretty slow. like no one’s ever gonna be nervous that someone is about to throw them so they stick out a low forward. you gotta be almost point blank for it to be a threat.
I think it was you who in the other thread was talking about FADC uppercut being a viable tool for people who refuse to block. I agree, but I think the fact that you should even have to expend that much effort (and meter) just to punish lazy defense really sucks.
to me buffing walk speed and making the throw tech window smaller addresses the exact same problem, just in a more elegant way. way easier to open people up and force them to commit to actions that you can punish without having to FADC hoping to catch them in the act.
I think SF4 has been pretty successful but it doesn’t make you nervous that they’re probably nerfing what is one of the core ways of getting damage now? I see a down-back kind of game on the horizon unless they give people some other viable way of opening people up.
I was just making a point about Footsies and how Infiltration has amazing footsies as a player (not because of his character Akuma) and can dominate in the footsies department with Ryu just fine too if he wants to.
Akuma is a better character than Ryu overall and Infiltration mains him, but I don’t know why you’d bring that up when I was just talking about how good Infiltration’s footsies is.
I understand he has great footsies, I was just pointing out how in you argument with IglooBob you said Daigo and Infiltration have great footsies, and I was saying how Infiltration gets a lot of his mileage out of the fact that Akuma has very good walkspeed making the fear of his footsie options much greater than say Daigo’s Ryu. You’re not wrong, I just see things differently.
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Teching throw is far from being free and easy mode in SF4, Frame traps are scary when playing against someone who knows how to use them, if anything character who have weak frame traps should get better normals for counter hit setups.
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If they’re nerfing vortex characters tools specifically, no I don’t see the need for such system changes, specially considering how people are pretending like everyone has a vortex when only a handful of characters have truly good ones. Characters like Ryu will do just fine using the good ol’ safejump pressure just like how it has been since vanilla Sf4 until people learned the word “vortex” with AE.
However IMO the game Will need some drastic gameplay changes if they nerfed the ENTIRE knockdown game and screwing even regular safejumps, like introducing rolls, that would be bad on so many levels it’s not even funny Regardless of how it’ll impact vortex characters, a huge unnecessary gamble if you ask me.
characters definitely play a part - Akuma has great walk speed of course. and any characters with a command grab might be wondering what the big deal is about opening people up. Makoto or Zangief are great and have threatening options to force the other player to commit to options. divekick characters also have solid tools for getting in and getting damage from there.
but other characters really struggle against the system and have to work hard for low amounts of damage at a time. if you can’t threaten people with anything except pokes from midrange you’ll have to work hard for damage unless your opponent wants to play really risky.
ha I keep typing and posting like 1 minute after you. well anyway.
I didn’t really start playing SF4 until AE, my my impression has always been that SSF4 was a very defensive game, even though they had frame traps/counterhit setups developed then too. then with AE Yun and Yang were good, and by 2012 most of the good characters had some combination of either vortex, alterable jump arc, or an up close guessing game revolving around command grabs and FADC into big damage. most of these characters are the ones that people complain about so I expect they’ll get nerfed. so the question is “what are we left with.” if the answer is “we still have a guessing game between throw or frame trap” then that’s pretty limited.
SFxT anti airs are so good and jump ins are so much easier to anti air that if you have to deal with a million jump ins thats because you are not anti airing and people can jump at you for free. That game has its own problems but being jumped at a lot shouldnt be one of them at high level.
At the very least, they should make forward dashes better (faster, more range) like what Bas and I have been saying. This would at least make dash up throws a bigger threat. I mean, that’s definitely one tool I use more in 3S than in IV, due to how much better dashes are in that game.
I think in SF games throws are overemphasized, I understand in SF4 throws aren’t as good as in the older games. But really throws should be used against opponents who just stand there and block all day, your offensive game shouldn’t revolve around throwing, it’s quite boring imo.
Make overhead faster and comboable, add guard breaking moves or some shit like that… But sometimes I get thrown out of an EX SPD with Seth, I get air thrown out of a EX Tatsu… SF4 is my first SF game so yeah I find that throws are already retarded.
first, it’s not that someone’s game revolves around throwing, it’s that they’re not neglecting it or only using it at the most obvious time. why only threaten throw when someone’s spent a few seconds blocking? why not throw in thr middle of a combo to keep them on their toes? just the idea of being thrown is enough to get someone to press buttons, that’s the whole point. counterhit set-ups and frame traps are all based on getting someone to press a button, crouch tech, flinch.
as for overheads being comboable, some characters already have that, but making it piss easy would just turn the street fighter into a slow marvel game. you want that?
being that this is your first street fighter, you don’t know how scary throws really were. you’re lucky throws in this game have an actual whiff animation and teching is as lenient as it already is. just practice and stick with the system and don’t let too many whiners enable your feeling of helplessness, because this game is the easiest iteration of all…the instant gratification of this generation is just fucking it up for everyone else.
lol I wasn’t even complaining, before SF4 I was a Budokai 3 player, a game developed by Dimps the same company who co-developed SF4. If Dimps weren’t involved I wouldn’t be playing a SF game, it’s simply not my cup of tea. In Budokai 3 you can beat throws by pressing any buttons, but you get rewarded when you land one since it leads to an infinite combo, and that happens when an opponent is overly defensive.
I’m glad throws aren’t as retarded as in older games tho.
Throws are an important part of the neutral game of any decent competitive fighter (something which, by design, Budokai 3 is not, nor does it strive to be).
Fast walk speed means nothing without buttons. Gief’s footsies are good because his walk speed while slow is good enough for footsies AND he has a 4F far reaching s.MP with a very short recovery time and decent damage for it’s total frame count. His far LK also is a great poke that can be buffered. His cr.LP and s.LP are also good at controlling space, in addition he has Lariat which is a good anti air option and way around fireballs at specific ranges, lastly he has the threat of LP SPD that can reach farther than alot of peoples pokes so people throw out longer reaching longer lasting pokes (Adon’s far HK, Cody’s far HK, Ryu’s cr.MK) from a farther range which often allows Gief’s far MP to whiff punish as he walks you down to the corner.
He can also mix things up because he has jumping attacks that reach very far down very quickly (fj.MK/knee drop) and others that back (splash/fj.HP) which can throw off anti air timing.
You can have a slow walk speed and be good at footsies just as you can have a fast walk speed and be poor at footsies (Viper)