Ultra SFIV - Change wishlist for Abel?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
161

This is a dense topic.

Would far mk serve as a ‘good’ anti-air against dive kicks? Rufus’s in particular!
At the moment right now, the normal which Abel has that serves as the answer to ‘non point blank’ dive kicks would be his far standing mp. If our goal is to make far mk a good tool against dive kicks then it only makes sense to make it better and more reliable than far mp, other wise the buff is virtually pointless with our goal in mind.

Far Mp: 5 start up/6 active/ Not special cancellable
Far Mk: 8 start up/3 active/ Not special cancellable

Notice that if far mp would take 3 of its active frames and shift them over to its start up, it would equate to what far mk is!

Anyway, unless a speed reduction is planned along side a hitbox upgrade, far mk won’t work in the way many Abel players want it to. If it comes out faster while keeping its angle and gets a better hitbox, then YES I think it would serve as a good anti-air against dive kicks, however with these buffs it’s obvious that the idea that I put forth toward the beginning would be put to the side.

So the whole topic boils down to one question and its a judgement call:
Far mk as a distance closer: Does Abel really need this? does he need ANOTHER tool to close distance against defensive characters/players when he already has many good ones (arguably)

Far mk as an anti dive kick: This move would mainly serve as an anti-mid screen dive kick and maybe be redudant against the rest of the roster (keep this perspective in mind) Is Abel’s defense against these dive kicks so horrid that it warrants a buff like this and more importantly are mid screen dive kicks a big enough problem that its solution should override the distance closing buff?

I and ALL Abel’s hate dive kicks so maybe the anti-dive kick mk is the better option afterall.
My opinion is this: How many dive kick characters are there? Rufus/Cammy/ The Twins/ Akuma/Seth(If they count as dive having dive kicks)

Problematic match-ups for sure (with yang arguably being the only exception) and common as well!
However I really do think that Abel already has ‘decent’ tools to fend off mid-screen dive kicks already and although an improved far mk could possibly solidify it, I’d prefer the distance closing version because I think it would have more utility amongst the vast majority of the roster.

But in all honesty there’s a way that we could have both shrugs shoulders
Simply shift the start-up/active to resemble far mp while improving the hitbox while at the same time taking a significant number of recovery frames away!

Perhaps a middle ground is reasonable (ya right…)
or maybe one or the other or a third option we haven’t thought of would be the best choice, but in all honestly either buff would be good for Abel so I wouldn’t be upset regardless of the outcome, I just think that one would be better than the other.

162

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfynuxpNJO0 If anyone hasn’t seen it lol.

Anyways, I agree that far st.mp is already a great tool against mid-screen divekicks, so if it recovered faster it would be awesome for whiffing into TT tricks. Of course I wouldn’t mind if it had the other buffs but I really don’t care about this buff at all anyways, just icing on cake for what the real buffs should be.

163

Would Cl.Hp having it’s hitbox lowered to hit all crouching opponents, mean it would have one of the largest hitboxes for a normal in the game? I mean it serves as an anit-air too.

Seems too good to have Cl.Hp as an anti-air AND hit crouching opponents.

164

If Makoto can have her ridiculous st.mp that works at any range then I don’t see why a close only normal can’t have a good hitbox. The alternative of course is just having step kick force stand on hit, which I still don’t see why it would be a big deal.

165

So, I’m definitely not trying to come off as an expert or anything. In fact I kind of suck. However, there really are just a couple things that I think would help Abel a lot without throwing him totally out of balance.

The F.mk -> Cl.hp link:
This feels like it should work on all characters considering the just frame link required for it. However I would be just as happy to have the link be slightly easier and keep the matchup specific issues in tact.

Far St.mk:
Just retracting Abel’s hitbox a little or extending the hurtbox out a little would probably be enough to make this move viable as a situational anti-air. Abel doesn’t need this to be amazing for it to be useful and frankly his Cr.mk and Cl.st.hp are pretty good in most situations anyway.

Wheel Kick:
This move should not be punishable on hit. I’m definitely not saying it should be safe in general. However i think reducing recovery frames by 5 across the board (excluding EX) would not make this move OP. For a move that comes out as slow as it does, someone who gets it with it outside of a combo does not deserve to get a punish on Abel when they are hit with it.

EX Falling Sky:
This should not be a free hit, but having it trade as frequently as it does, especially the way it trades (taking damage but not giving it) is ridiculous considering it costs meter. I believe that moving Abel’s hitbox lower, perhaps about the height of his crouch would make this move work much better while not making it something he can use super late and still win with.

Honestly those are the only things that I think he really needs. Sure having EX roll be grab immune would be a good quality of life thing since his wake up is quite weak. However full invincibility during startup makes it about as close to a get out of jail free card as he needs.

166

Remove Abel’s far.mk and replace it with close.mk (the one that looks like setp kick). Lower start up frames by 2 and lower recovery frames by 5.
-make it backdash cancelable

Only half srs but
-give him a target combo new and improved far.mk xx c.hk

167

I picked up Abel recently, I think I play already well : Ryu,Ken,Eryu,Vega,Bison,Makoto,Seth,Sagat,Cammy&Blanka.
First thing that I didn’t understand was why sometimes cl.HP was whiffing in combos and sometimes not, when I learned it was because of what character I was playing against and If they were crouching or not, I was like ? Bullshit.
Why would someone has an advantage over me just by selecting a character, it’s not like the combo wasn’t intended, step kick dash is +4 , abel only has one 4f move.Even a cross up MK-> cl.HP whiff, moves that force stand but whiff on crouched chars.Genius.
I really dislike all the character specific stuffs in games, it’s counter intuitive.(because of a glitch or lack of testing)

Ok here’s my whislist :
cl.HP : damage changed from 8030 to 7040, now hits all crouchers, this moves is a good anti air, your only link after step kick, can break focus,is your fastest move and does the most damage as a cancelable move,for the sake of balance -10 damage on first hit is mandatory.I think one move shouldn’t do it all but Abel lacks other options.

cr.HP : should hit twice on hit+block from at least a decent range ,probably not max,you can eat most reversal if the second hit whiffs, simple reason : when you land a hit you should be rewarded for it.
2nd hit :2active frame ->3f it’s very unreliable even against neutral jumps as of right now.

cr.LP : needs an improved hitbox (jump MK,cr.LP on crouched akuma whiffs!derp),5f startup ->4f so you can link it after step kick to somewhat be safer against reversals ultras (instead of throwing cl.HP constantly), also I think in general characters should have at least one 4f or less startup light move.

cr.MP : 7f startup -> 6f, allows for a midrange cr.LP into cr.MP for a 1f link hitconfirm

far.HK : you would want to use it at its max range , this range is also the range of a jump in, but this move has 14+2+19=35 total frames and a jump in is 36 more or less.-> less start up or recover. Should also come out farther than right now for the cl.HK’s sake.

cl.HK : 30/50 damage/stun overhead ->50(at least)/100 damage/stun OR 80damage/150 stun +0 on hit, -5 on block main purpose : stunning your opponent at the right time with an overhead.

4 moves I don’t understand : far.LP , far.MP, far.HP , far.MK : they all whiff on crouched chars, or even standing for the MK, the 3 punches should have their hitboxes reworked, far HP shouldn’t come out from that close and far.MK should be removed or completely reworked ( like a version of his far.LK even with a weak hitbox)

Jump up MK and Jump fwd HK should be reworked shoto style imo.(give HK shit active frames like 2 but make it able to hit crouchers).

Ex falling sky shouldn’t trade.

Wheel kick shouldn’t be easily punished on hit,ie Make it -4 or so , not -7 on hit.

U2 : shoudn’t be a gimmick ultra with ultra low hurtbox -> normal hurtbox -> less startup -> might remove the armor for startup invincibility.Grab ultra-> hit ultra, that way : U1 = anti projectile , U2 = anti air.

I’m fine with everything else , all of his specials are both strong but highly punishable, he has a nice okizeme but as of right now I don’t see why people place him so high in tier lists with all the glitches and half his normals being garbage even when I play a mediocre shoto like Ken I have no problem dealing with Abel, at least it’s even, with Cammy it’s free.

168

Because some people in this forum, who even dropped Abel but pretend to be experts, put Abel on place 6 in the tierlist. They just say that Abel has a 6-4 matchup against nearly any midtier character, which is totally bullshit, but okay.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

5.5 against Seth, 5-5 against honda, 6-4 against bison, 5-5 against Juri, 7-3 against Dhalsim, 5.5 against ERyu, 6-4 against Oni, 5.5 against Deejay.

This is in my opinion totally wrong.
Now people come and say, “who are you which tournament did you won”, this doesnt have anything to do with understanding the game, I am good with a lot of characters especially with abel and Bison, and I understnad the game mechanics very very well, I dont have the desire to put more time into the game, that is all.

5.5 against Seth: this is just wrong, abel clearly loses very hard to all the toptiers, Seths health is not an argument, neither cammys or akumas are. And seth has all the options akuma has in this matchup (beside akumas godlike s.roundhouse). braindead tandem engine (lol, what are footsies), a very good divekick which abel cant antiair at all, a command throw for a very strong mixup. Paired with a simple fact, after FS, Abel CANT do a crossup roll to connect with close mp !! the far version comes out, that neglicts one of abels strongest options which leads into ultra.

5-5 against honda. Honda has the advantage here, nothing to discuss for me, the simple fact that abels close hp doesnt hit in nearly all occassions beein the biggest problem. 5-5? Never.

6-4 against bison??? I main both characters, its 5-5 or 5.5-4.5 for bison. superior footsie game for bison, he absolutetely destroy abel here, he has a very easy job in staying out of step kick range, that is all to win the matchup, I dont see how chunli has an advantage against abel but bison a disadvantage. just wrong, bison is much stronger then chun li against abel, better and safer mixup, muuuch more escape options, better movement.

5-5 against juri. hell no, I think the developers of the list never played against a good juri, same for E.Ryu or Oni, Eryu and Oni are all fair matchups, same with deejay. Juri has a nice advantage against abel.

7-4 vs dhalsim. If akuma or cammy vs abel is “only” 6-4, then this is never a 7-3 matchup, its then 6-4 or also 3-7.

Just look at the tierlists of the really good players (japanese) and dont listen to the forum wannabees in here, the japanese never mention Abel in the top ten or even top 15.

edit: yeah look at the list, sagat place 21, sure. One of the really solid characters, not too overpowered like the current toptiers, but overal really solid, easily top ten for me, and Bison is never place 19, also better, top 15 easily.

169

cr.lp 4 frames could make it so that if you hit a crouching opponent with step kick you could combo -crouch jab then standing strong into CoD-

crouch jab into crouch strong combo would be WAY TOO over powered, so i really hope they give him that link
lmao

170

after getting back into this game, one thing that i would actually want changed is

far standing heavy punch. i think removing it from the game and keeping close heavy punch as default would be amazing. this would create more consistency for anti air. it would also allow abel to combo -crouch light kick xx crouch light punch xx standing heavy punch xx CoD- from a great distance.

the move now is pretty lame. slow start up and bad range, it also comes out too close to the character when your expecting close heavy punch to come out.

171

That’s exactly why it won’t happen!
Great damage + Great mix-up/resets

If abel receives buffs it will be within the realm of things such as, range buffs, back dashes/movement speed/hitbox adjustments etc.

It will be very difficult making the case as to why Abel needs or deserves another new avenue for more damage opportunities.

172

i still want stepkick -> st fierce to hit all crouchers…although if that happens, I will feel nowhere near as badass when I get those CH links in clutch situations that net me the win lololol.

like getting a stepkick in and ending the game with the bnb is pretty fkin clutch… but, getting a stepkick in + counterhit and the guy is thinking that he is safe because he is crouching and then all of a sudden I do cr jab->st strong into ultra…my dick gets ROCK HARD.

173

i don’t really see the problem. most characters can deal insane damage off of crouch short, with much longer hit confirm combos. that also leave them with options for knockdowns/mixups, pushing opponents to the corner and FADC ultras.

it seems like abel is one of the few that has to hit confirm a difficult link after one hit, two hits max if you’re close enough to do the combo i mentioned before

174

“Insane”, seems a tad too strong would you say? unless I’m forgetting other characters’ combos, would you refresh my memory?

Abel: crlk crlp sthp already works on a few characters and the damage is 300-320 iirc. To give Abel that combo on a more consistent basis while keeping intact his command grab mix-ups and post knock down oki will be tough to swallow.

Nevertheless
Keep your fingers crossed.

175

They are not going to change any fundamental character design issues this far in. Maybe some frame/hitbox changes but that’s about it imo.

Like I said, all he really needs is stepkick > st.hp to work on everyone. Some other changes would be nice, sure, but that strikes me as the biggest culprit

176

In case you missed it, these were the changes submitted to Capcom (or at least the ones made public).

I don’t think wheel kick needs a buff. Could be a very cheap move, especially online.

177

shorter recovery on hit for his knock down moves, so we can have more okizeme options (or have i mentioned this? lol)

178

With all the buff requests submitted for other characters (including yun!!?), anyone think we should’ve asked for more buffs?

Something tells me we’ll all regret trying to be fair to the game…

179

srk put Abel on place 6 in the tierlist (lol), I completely agree with you but I fear you are in the wrong place with such proposals :frowning: .
He will still get bodied hard in the future by cammy Akuma or any other divekick char, we delivered no balance suggestion to change that fact. I fear a lot of midtier characters will pull ahead in tiers.

180

I think it’s a safe bet that most outlandish suggestions have already been ignored.